That hit it on the head assasin....the thing everyone is forgetting here is the fact paps is running with an outdated ms wheel and runs fast times with it, id love to see what he could do with a better wheel and pedal set!
How do I aquire these acutely sensitive hands u speak of and fastness?
I hear some countries are still chopping hands off for stealing :)
Track I cannot shift faster, Nothing to do with skill just the distance various parts of the body have to travel, and I agree skill is the greater part of the equation and I clearly stated my point apply only to hot lapping not racing and then only as applies to the top lappers on the public leader boards. I am not complaining, far from it. Yes I love my wheel, I love racing against people whatever they use. I get beaten by wheels and controllers and on occasion beat both. Like I said I would like to see the best hot lapper of one in a hot lap contest against the best of the other...Just to maybe give closure to what is only a simple debate
I'm just saying what is on my mind about the topic. My panties aren't in a bunch and I'm not speaking to any particular person other than my on purpose, close, but not correct quote. A wheel has far more potential than a controller does any day. I don't have a wheel so I can't compare but I do know what you guys call a steering assist, in my particular situation, is more of a handicap. I could have much more precision if it wasn't there. I don't notice it as much with sim steering so that's what I use.
I'm just saying what is on my mind about the topic. My panties aren't in a bunch and I'm not speaking to any particular person other than my on purpose, close, but not correct quote. A wheel has far more potential than a controller does any day. I don't have a wheel so I can't compare but I do know what you guys call a steering assist, in my particular situation, is more of a handicap. I could have much more precision if it wasn't there. I don't notice it as much with sim steering so that's what I use.
Oh another aspect to consider simulation or normal , I have been driving sim for a while and hot lapping will try normal once my times are consistent .
Like a lot of players out there I cant afford a full cage a wheel system so will try to max out what I can do with the controller so any more advice would be great and bloody good discursion , I learn loads when you guys get problems !!!!
There are subtle advantages and disadvantes to each. I'm sure that the the guy that is fast with a controller will be just as fast with a wheel............given time. As for the shifting, if you are using the "H" pattern or sequential stick then you may be slower, but if you are using the paddles it will be about the same.
Using the right tune with the wheel or controller will result in fast times and for those that have sensitive hands, will be aliens
Heh that is the problem with linear and text only discussions, always hard to say who one is addressing comments too, and the tone of the commentary I obviously have both wheel and controller and choose the wheel every time. I am not even close to getting the best out of it and it is an ongoing drive (no pun intended) to improve. I have heard that sim steering is optimized for controllers and that is why Fanatec owners have been advised to use normal, so that is maybe why you find it better. (not suggesting you are being assisted, maybe in fact the opposite.) Anyhoo as far as I am concerned personally, I am neither really fast with wheel or controller so the whole question is a mute point, I have much practice and honing of skills to do and will take help from any quarter on lines, tunes etc. Don't give a damn what the guy helping is using. The skills of racing are exactly the same.
The whole point of me joining this clan was to improve my skills and help others improve theirs as well. I have a dream...that one day...there will be no handicaps. Wheel users and controller users will unite and make babies. Controller users and wheels users will drink from the same fountains. And that there will be no aliens, because we people have a common goal. Bumper to bumper racing from turn 1 to the checkered flag.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking anyone's preferences I'm stating observations between controllers and wheels, not controller users and wheel users.
Saying person a beats person b using x is pointless. I'm the same person hotlapping with two different controllers, and discussing the differences.
After some trials last night my reaction is that the higher the class (until R) the more profound the effects are.
Regarding turning in a sweeper, I took my f class monza to Tsukuba short for trials. In the sweeper before the start finish this was the difference:
Wheel: throttle induced understeer, and needed feathering to get the nose to point back into the corner.
Controller: at full throttle, and full steering lock the attitude if the car maintained a constant attitude where it was pointing into the inside of the corner, and a lift was never required.
Now I'm still not comfortable with the controller so I still have no chance of beating any pb's yet, but I do believe that the potential is there.
I know that controller users may take this as an attack of there skill, but please believe me that it's not. I have a ton of respect fir the fast guys out there. I'm just trying to figure out how certain things I see in replays are achievable, and to some degree this is a clue.
I'm not bashing controllers, I'm coming over to your side :-)
lets start a frenzy..................................
... wheel users are arcade players since games in arcades have wheels, not controllers
... controller users are true racers who enjoy the complexity of trying to drive a car with only fingers and thumbs cause anyone can drive a car with a real wheel....
discuss!
you all know I am kidding, right?
... just waiting on fantomas to pop in and arcade/controller/assist bash in 3....2........1.........
Iam still stuck on the wheels and controllers breeding? What would they be called? Lol
For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times.
It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
Iam still stuck on the wheels and controllers breeding? What would they be called? Lol For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times. It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
AHH HAA you hit the nail on the head , I have been hit in the head so many times and seen those wonderful stars I've lost count thats my problem !!!!!!
I am still stuck on the wheels and controllers breeding? What would they be called? Lol For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times. It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
They tried that and came out with that wireless U shaped abomination didn't they? Ewwww....
I'm not upset about anything I was just stating my opinion as a controller user. Maybe my wording wasn't quite right. I'm better at live conversation than typing on a forum.
It is a problem working out the truth of the matter because of the skill factor, but maybe Pap is just the man to do it. Undeniably fast on an outdated wheel, so I'm sure he will be just as skillful on a controller. His tunes attest to the fact he knows his shit when it comes to the cars so I will be interested in what he finds. Whatever it is I will stick to my wheel, because that is where I get the most fun, and I know I will stand the same chance in a race once I get my race skills up there with the fast guys.
There is also word that Turn ten are working on the Sens issue with wheels past 270 so that will be interesting, that and ALC should help at least us Fanatec users get the best out of our toys.
Apart from anything else I finished ahead of Fitzy and Parcells in the EUSL today, so I am in a happy bubble and fully intend to make a habit of it
That is the only time I think it does come into play, as I have said in a race it is all about race craft and not about a few extra tenths a controller may have over a wheel on a hot lap. I only hot lap to learn a track and often beat that time in a race anyway, I seem to need the pressure to get the best out of myself.
Sorry to be blunt (hopefully won't offend anyone) but who cares? Really? :) Either if you are using controller or a wheel, its about enjoying the game and each other. Again, this is not meant in a nasty way. :)
Sorry to be blunt (hopefully won't offend anyone) but who cares? Really? :) Either if you are using controller or a wheel, its about enjoying the game and each other. Again, this is not meant in a nasty way. :)
I care. You don't gain knowledge without caring, and that's what I'm looking for.
Whether you enjoy the game with the wheel or controller is a mute point, and gives absolutely no insight into the differences in game between the two. Preference is simply the last criteria for choosing when all other facts and information are known. I prefer the wheel, and will continue to use it for racing, but if the controller gives me the ability to put in faster hotlap times then I will explore that as well.
I'm not looking for which input device gives the greatest immersion, or comfort. I want to know if the in-game differences that I experienced were valid. To that end if people have only ever used the controller, or only ever used the wheel then their input also has little value because they can't make a direct comparison.
kurupt wrote:
For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times. It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
Good information, but in the cases where your pb was with the wheel did you attempt to break them with the same car using a controller, and couldn't, or did it just turn out that you ran a pb with the wheel and left it at that?
When I brought this up I actually didn't realize it was akin to discussing politics or religion. It was meant as a discussion of two inanimate objects used to interface with a gaming console, and the in-game differences between the two. There's no place for feelings here
Sorry to be blunt (hopefully won't offend anyone) but who cares? Really? :) Either if you are using controller or a wheel, its about enjoying the game and each other. Again, this is not meant in a nasty way. :)
I care. You don't gain knowledge without caring, and that's what I'm looking for.
Whether you enjoy the game with the wheel or controller is a mute point, and gives absolutely no insight into the differences in game between the two. Preference is simply the last criteria for choosing when all other facts and information are known. I prefer the wheel, and will continue to use it for racing, but if the controller gives me the ability to put in faster hotlap times then I will explore that as well.
I'm not looking for which input device gives the greatest immersion, or comfort. I want to know if the in-game differences that I experienced were valid. To that end if people have only ever used the controller, or only ever used the wheel then their input also has little value because they can't make a direct comparison.
kurupt wrote:
For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times. It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
Good information, but in the cases where your pb was with the wheel did you attempt to break them with the same car using a controller, and couldn't, or did it just turn out that you ran a pb with the wheel and left it at that?
When I brought this up I actually didn't realize it was akin to discussing politics or religion. It was meant as a discussion of two inanimate objects used to interface with a gaming console, and the in-game differences between the two. There's no place for feelings here
Sounds like you need to talk to a T10 programmer...who has no feelings...
For the record more than half my pbs in fm3 were done using a wheel. But there were tracks I couldn't even come close to my controller times. It all comes down to what's more comfortable for the user, and what works better and faster with your brain your feet or hands?
Good information, but in the cases where your pb was with the wheel did you attempt to break them with the same car using a controller, and couldn't, or did it just turn out that you ran a pb with the wheel and left it at that?
When I brought this up I actually didn't realize it was akin to discussing politics or religion. It was meant as a discussion of two inanimate objects used to interface with a gaming console, and the in-game differences between the two. There's no place for feelings here
I think this gets treated as such because the intimation that controller users have some magical advantage over wheel users.
I do think that all else being equal (and it's never that way in real life), the gamepad has to be programmed with more assists than for the wheel in Forza for obvious physical reasons. Frankly, I don't know that T10 could be successful if they didn't add those assists with the gamepad with all it's pysical limitations. Or the wheel programming is really messed up--although you could easily argue that at the moment, it's a matter of fact if you use any wheel over 270 degrees (all the Fanatecs). And just try the wheel on any modern PC race simulator, and then tell me that T10 didn't mess up the wheel programming for their Official Fanatec "Forza" wheels.
But overall skills do trump the differences between the controller inputs in Forza by a wide margin. I know for a fact that I'm not going to get anywhere near Track's time, let alone beat it, regardless of what controller he uses.
But at the same time, this particular weird Weismann base tune really highlights the differences. I believe some of it boils down to the haptic feedback you get on the wheel when the car is at the edge (understeer, oversteer, loss of traction, etc.). With the gamepad, you react to what you see on the screen, with the wheel, it's natural to react very differently when you start to feel all the various FFB effects the car physics programming is throwing out.
Wait! You forgot the number one advantage of the controller. I can sit comfortably in my recliner with feet propped up and hands resting in my lap, less fatigue=more speed!
Yeah I should have done more research on fm.net and I would have seen what a touchy subject it was. I'm just going to do my own research on the subject.
Yeah I should have done more research on fm.net and I would have seen what a touchy subject it was. I'm just going to do my own research on the subject.
LOL Indeed, there are a handful of subjects that get heated, assists, driving views and leader board cars come to mind.
Yeah I should have done more research on fm.net and I would have seen what a touchy subject it was. I'm just going to do my own research on the subject.
Yeah I should have done more research on fm.net and I would have seen what a touchy subject it was. I'm just going to do my own research on the subject.
Yeah I should have done more research on fm.net and I would have seen what a touchy subject it was. I'm just going to do my own research on the subject.
Track I cannot shift faster, Nothing to do with skill just the distance various parts of the body have to travel, and I agree skill is the greater part of the equation and I clearly stated my point apply only to hot lapping not racing and then only as applies to the top lappers on the public leader boards. I am not complaining, far from it. Yes I love my wheel, I love racing against people whatever they use. I get beaten by wheels and controllers and on occasion beat both. Like I said I would like to see the best hot lapper of one in a hot lap contest against the best of the other...Just to maybe give closure to what is only a simple debate
Oh another aspect to consider simulation or normal , I have been driving sim for a while and hot lapping will try normal once my times are consistent .
Like a lot of players out there I cant afford a full cage a wheel system so will try to max out what I can do with the controller so any more advice would be great and bloody good discursion , I learn loads when you guys get problems !!!!
There are subtle advantages and disadvantes to each. I'm sure that the the guy that is fast with a controller will be just as fast with a wheel............given time. As for the shifting, if you are using the "H" pattern or sequential stick then you may be slower, but if you are using the paddles it will be about the same.
Using the right tune with the wheel or controller will result in fast times and for those that have sensitive hands, will be aliens
Heh that is the problem with linear and text only discussions, always hard to say who one is addressing comments too, and the tone of the commentary
I obviously have both wheel and controller and choose the wheel every time. I am not even close to getting the best out of it and it is an ongoing drive (no pun intended) to improve. I have heard that sim steering is optimized for controllers and that is why Fanatec owners have been advised to use normal, so that is maybe why you find it better. (not suggesting you are being assisted, maybe in fact the opposite.) Anyhoo as far as I am concerned personally, I am neither really fast with wheel or controller so the whole question is a mute point, I have much practice and honing of skills to do and will take help from any quarter on lines, tunes etc. Don't give a damn what the guy helping is using. The skills of racing are exactly the same.
Amen to that brother...well except the making babys bit
lets start a frenzy..................................
... wheel users are arcade players since games in arcades have wheels, not controllers
... controller users are true racers who enjoy the complexity of trying to drive a car with only fingers and thumbs cause anyone can drive a car with a real wheel....
discuss!
you all know I am kidding, right?
... just waiting on fantomas to pop in and arcade/controller/assist bash in 3....2........1.........
AHH HAA you hit the nail on the head , I have been hit in the head so many times and seen those wonderful stars I've lost count thats my problem !!!!!!
They tried that and came out with that wireless U shaped abomination didn't they? Ewwww....
It is a problem working out the truth of the matter because of the skill factor, but maybe Pap is just the man to do it. Undeniably fast on an outdated wheel, so I'm sure he will be just as skillful on a controller. His tunes attest to the fact he knows his shit when it comes to the cars so I will be interested in what he finds. Whatever it is I will stick to my wheel, because that is where I get the most fun, and I know I will stand the same chance in a race once I get my race skills up there with the fast guys.
There is also word that Turn ten are working on the Sens issue with wheels past 270 so that will be interesting, that and ALC should help at least us Fanatec users get the best out of our toys.
Apart from anything else I finished ahead of Fitzy and Parcells in the EUSL today, so I am in a happy bubble and fully intend to make a habit of it
To be honest I'll likely not make the switch entirely. I love my wheel. Even if it is a crappy old MS one.
In 2O4F lobbies I'm quick enough to race with everyone. Hell I can even make it tough for Tourni to pass me as long as I start in front
This only came up when there was a "beat this time" event to get a unicorn. The only time it matters when you're as fast as you can possibly be
No edit button: I'm still going to practice with the controller though to see if I can get faster for hotlapping. Racing will always be wheel though.
That is the only time I think it does come into play, as I have said in a race it is all about race craft and not about a few extra tenths a controller may have over a wheel on a hot lap. I only hot lap to learn a track and often beat that time in a race anyway, I seem to need the pressure to get the best out of myself.
Sorry to be blunt (hopefully won't offend anyone) but who cares? Really? :) Either if you are using controller or a wheel, its about enjoying the game and each other. Again, this is not meant in a nasty way. :)
I care. You don't gain knowledge without caring, and that's what I'm looking for.
Whether you enjoy the game with the wheel or controller is a mute point, and gives absolutely no insight into the differences in game between the two. Preference is simply the last criteria for choosing when all other facts and information are known. I prefer the wheel, and will continue to use it for racing, but if the controller gives me the ability to put in faster hotlap times then I will explore that as well.
I'm not looking for which input device gives the greatest immersion, or comfort. I want to know if the in-game differences that I experienced were valid. To that end if people have only ever used the controller, or only ever used the wheel then their input also has little value because they can't make a direct comparison.
Good information, but in the cases where your pb was with the wheel did you attempt to break them with the same car using a controller, and couldn't, or did it just turn out that you ran a pb with the wheel and left it at that?
When I brought this up I actually didn't realize it was akin to discussing politics or religion. It was meant as a discussion of two inanimate objects used to interface with a gaming console, and the in-game differences between the two. There's no place for feelings here
Sounds like you need to talk to a T10 programmer...who has no feelings...
Yeah programmers are like that
I think this gets treated as such because the intimation that controller users have some magical advantage over wheel users.
I do think that all else being equal (and it's never that way in real life), the gamepad has to be programmed with more assists than for the wheel in Forza for obvious physical reasons. Frankly, I don't know that T10 could be successful if they didn't add those assists with the gamepad with all it's pysical limitations. Or the wheel programming is really messed up--although you could easily argue that at the moment, it's a matter of fact if you use any wheel over 270 degrees (all the Fanatecs). And just try the wheel on any modern PC race simulator, and then tell me that T10 didn't mess up the wheel programming for their Official Fanatec "Forza" wheels.
But overall skills do trump the differences between the controller inputs in Forza by a wide margin. I know for a fact that I'm not going to get anywhere near Track's time, let alone beat it, regardless of what controller he uses.
But at the same time, this particular weird Weismann base tune really highlights the differences. I believe some of it boils down to the haptic feedback you get on the wheel when the car is at the edge (understeer, oversteer, loss of traction, etc.). With the gamepad, you react to what you see on the screen, with the wheel, it's natural to react very differently when you start to feel all the various FFB effects the car physics programming is throwing out.
Yeah we kinda got that
tis just one of "those" questions that always spark a lively thread.
Wait! You forgot the number one advantage of the controller. I can sit comfortably in my recliner with feet propped up and hands resting in my lap, less fatigue=more speed!
LOL Indeed, there are a handful of subjects that get heated, assists, driving views and leader board cars come to mind.
LOL, is there a shit stirrer badge? hah!
Maybe someone will make me one for my sig
Sounds like a Church maneuver...