Controller Vs. Wheel
Controller Vs. Wheel
Like the rest of you I've heard how controller users are simply faster than wheel users. I've always been a wheel user, and I've never really given a whole lot of thought to the subject... until today.
I know that I'm not the fastest guy out there, but I can hold my own in a fair fight. I've put up top 100 times on some heavily contested LB's so it was a little bit frustrating to me that I couldn't come within 5 whole seconds of the top time in the Weismann. I ran lap after lap after lap, and I was at my talent wall. Nothing I did helped. So it was time to watch the fast guys run, and see if I could pick up some tips. The driving I saw was incredible, and clearly on the controller. I thought to myself "could it really be that different?"
I'm not a controller user so my expectations were pretty low. I expected to have a hard time being precise (and I was), but I wanted a general feel of the difference. I threw on normal steering with the controller and set off in my hunk of junk Weismann.
Holy shit, am I really driving the same car?
The first thing I notice is the difference in braking. With the MS Wheel I have very good positional muscle memory in my braking foot. I get to threshhold braking quite quickly, and can maintain braking at that level easily. The previous description of brakes like "mushy peas" was extrememly accurate. With the controller the braking was like tossing out an anchor! I could apply the brakes a lot heavier than I could with the wheel without locking them up. Braking was rapid and controlled.
On to steering! With the wheel I was so frustrated because I needed to start turning for the corner extremely early. Why early? The car won't turn!! It's completely unresponsive and ignores all suggestions to alter course. Now with the controller when I turn left the car goes left, turn right and it goes right. What is this witchcraft?? I was hitting apexes I couldn't hit with the wheel because the car actually did exactly what I was telling it to do. I had been chasing thechosenfamily for about 30 laps with the wheel and there was nothing I could do to get close to him. With a single flying lap on the controller I was closer to him than I had ever been, despite the numerous mistakes being made because of an unfamiliar controller.
It only makes sense that acceleration also benefit from the increase in grip. It was easier to get full power on earlier without spinning up the tires.
In FM3 even with the wheel I was able to be just outside of the fast guys, but here in FM4 I really struggle to put in the same kinds of times. After this test I can truly see why. Guys using the controller aren't playing the same game I am! The difference is just so profound.
Please don't think I'm upset, or that this is a rant or anything. Just a surprising result from a little testing.
Has anyone else done any testing between the two control types? What do you notice?
I was so moved by the difference that I'm going to hang up my wheel, and go through the process of moving over to the controller. I'll struggle for a little while, but I'll do most of my practicing running track days until I feel I won't be a hazard in our lobbies.
Really interested to hear from others who have experienced this, or if you think I'm a complete nutter!
I wish I could compare, but I only use a controller.
However, it was my comment of the mushy pees for brakes and I do use a controller. For me, on most cars, I apply brakes (ABS off) untill I feel the bite and gauge the pressure needed from there. My speed instantly is reflected by the application of the brakes.
In the Wiesmann, I pull the trigger, back, back, back and back some more and the car slows maybe an insignificant MPH amount and then it finally starts to grab. If I am not carefull I will lock the brakes so I tend to be cautious and cautious means I must start braking super early just to get them to respond. I have gotten used to it after a few laps but won't run that again unless I am bored or the Bounty guy goes into the 1:08s. I don't do stock really, but the incentive Unicorns get me out to lay a time to get me one and that is all.
For me, it really is just this car's brakes so far but granted, I build and tune and rarely run stock cars... but the ones I have so far don't seem the same as that car.
Back to my thought and point... if I said the brakes felt like that with a controller to me but you think it is that much better on a controller vs wheel, I have to wonder... is the controller really that good?
I am curious Paps, have you tried to go after a time or ghost you fell short of in the wheel before in a tuned car or simply, a better stock car?
If so, were the results even better than the Wiesmann? I know time using the controller makes it hard to say with limited stick time, but what's your initial gut reaction to any car BUT the freakin Wiesmann? it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on other cars. :)
I'm making the switch as of today so I'll let you know. My initial gut reaction is that there's a sliver more grip available to the controller user, so this would carry over to any car you drive. I know that there will always be a built in aid for the controller user; there has to be. The stick is less than an inch, so how could you possibly have any kind of precise control with that? Whether or not the aid is actually increasing grip or not, there is some function going on that assists the car in following the inputs of the controller. For quite some time now I've watched controller users have more control over the car than I had. I always chaulked it up to them being better drivers, and didn't dwell on it, but while I may still not be a top driver I know I'm not using all of the available tools at my dissposal.
With the braking I often get accused of braking too early, yet if you watch the replay you'll see the contact patches flickering constantly as they're on the edge of locking up. With the wheel I was starting to brake for the hairpin (corner 1) before the brake line told me too. I was still overshooting the corner and going off the track unless I was also slamming down through the gears at the same time. I very rarely ever saw close to the apex of the corner. With the controller I dirtied my lap because the car braked so hard, and turned in so sharply, that I actually cut the corner by an entire car width!
I also wonder what built in assists exist (if any) in the Fanatec that make it different than the MS Wheel.
i was always a little faster with the controller but i would still rather race with the wheel so much more fun
I was talking about this yesterday with oldschool I think, I was also contesting that the fastest guys out there all seemed to be controller users, not that you cannot be fast with a wheel, but that you cannot compete the the fastest finger jockeys. But it is not about being the fastest for me, I'm not a leaderboard driver, I am a wanna be racing driver. There is sooo much more immersion with the wheel, and as I add more sim kit to my set up that experience will get greater. I every now and then do a lap or two with the controller, usually after a session in the paint shop, less fun...for me.
So yes I think your right, and I am not knocking controller users, far from it. To be a fast player with either takes practice and commitment and not everyone can make or wants to make the investment in sim gear. But is you want to be up there with the very fastest...yes I think controller.
the biggest difference between the two is the steering aid that the controllers have....the assist limits how far you can turn depending on your speed...the faster you go the less turning angle you get.....this is not present in the wheel if your're turning the wheel over to far then it's just going to push
So as long as your entering speed is correct the car will glide thru the corners smoothly and that's where all the speed is gained . a wheel user can can go past the optimum turning angle and can even correct his line in mid turn and it's slightly slower. Getting the perfect smooth line through the turns is much harder with a wheel....a controller user just has to match his speed and hold the stick over.
I love how some will brag about driving with no assists like they're some kind of racing god....and then admit they use a controller...which has the biggest asist in the game....a steering assist
I saw this post in my thread and must say I'm surprised. I always assumed that Wheel users had more/better control of the cars.
Must say I have no interest in throwing cash at a wheel/racing rig to experience what you wheel users apparently going through...
Mysterious "driving aids" or not, I have to disagree. The sticks self center and fine inputs are not easy. Lots of little corrections are necessary when turning.
Also, the guys that feel the need to brag about not using assists have a special set of issues as they usually equate difficulty to realism.
A hazard in our lobbies? Seriously Paps who you trying to kid? You're a complete Nutter. Everything in your entertaining posts points towards the wheel being the better racing experience, which it is.
You beat me to it Parcells, any idea that wheel users "suffer" is so wide of the mark. I would never go back to controller and am in fact spending more on my sim racing rig, not to make me faster, but to make the whole experience more entertaining and immersive.
Or you could get on GT5 and compare the Red Bull X10 challenge between controller and wheel to belie any idea that wheel users "suffer"
If you could shave at least 5 secs off your hot lap times with a regular controller ....I wonder how many wheel users would go back to controllers .
To be honest I don't like the wheel but gave it a try and yes the measly 20 hours or so wasn't enough to get used to it and was told that it needed at least a couple of month's , I game for fun and last night about 4 am I chucked in the towel with the wheel and went back to the controller and with the advanced settings started to hot lap and break my own times OH with a wired controller I seem to have a lot more throttle control , and the breaking distance is a lot more tolerant with my heavy breaking !!!
I have no doubt that Forza is optimized for controller users.
And wheel users have the additional difficulty of the physical arrangement they use for wheel and pedals.
However, if you can get a comfortable and stable physical setup for your wheel/pedals I think this goes a long way to reducing the adjustment/frustration time.
Also Forza does give you quite a lot of adjustment ability in terms of deadzones, etc for wheel/pedal. This can also help a lot.
20 hours may be not be enough to get fully used to wheel/pedals but I found it didnt take much more. Certainly not a couple of months...
Laugh if you will but on a controller I'm still a hazard
I was feeling more comfortable after the Fujimi Track Days event though so I'll keep on that one for the practice with car placement, and offline cornering. The beginning was rough, but about a third in I started finding my rhythm.
I race with the controller. I always thought that the wheel was faster. With the wheel you can hold a line and not scrub speed especially through a sweeping corner, where the controller has to keep putting inputs in to keep a line, which scrubs time and speed.
Using the controller one has to really learn to use small inputs to keep the speed up through most corners. I am an all or nothing kind of racer.
I have not mastered using small amounts of input as TrackAsassin has. Someone thought he was using the wheel because his inputs were so smooth.
The only place where the controller would be faster is in a series of S turns. Seems it would be harder to get the wheel back and forth compared to the controller. Sometimes you can hear the wheel really howling when someone is trying to catch a tank slapper.
I have heard there is a difference with the wired and wireless controller too. I am now using the wired and I do like it more. There is a difference in steering and throttle responce to me.
I have used a wheel in my GT days and it was faster than the controller, without a doubt.
In conventional (aka "real world") thinking you would be correct...but not necessarily in Forza logic. Hehe.
Yeah, always thought wheel vrs controller was smooth vrs brutal.
I run the controller on sim, not normal steering, and some have called me a masochist for it. But I refuse to go back. I have noticed the thing about not being able to turn tight enough, and if you simply downshift, even as your breaking the rear loose from the explosive decel, the wheel does turn in tighter. Somehow it sseems to be tied to the speed AND gear you're in ( I dunno).
But smooth should always win out through a corner.
Having only played a few weeks on rFactor, I prefer a wheel to a controller, and it's because of the smoothness achievable. (ACL is nice too).
Those that say the top folks are controller users as fact are a tad off.
I don't know for sure who uses what, but I know that the some of the live tournaments use a wheel setup only and the regular list of top folks are winning with them.
AJ the Boy and jerseyboySS recently posted (Hyundai comp) they use a wheel if I am not mistaken (AJ for sure) and they are faassssttttt. Perhaps more people using controllers hold more top times, but I think that is simply due to the fact controllers are in every single last Xbox 360 home. Wheels simply are not. HIgher percentage of controllers vs wheels = higher percentage of fast controller guys. If there was a 50/50 split, I am sure the stats would skew that way but it probably is more between 85/15 to 95/5 (controller/wheel) users.
I haven't used a wheel for more than an hour, but I do agree with one thing though... the wheel is just smoother in certain situations like sweepers and making small corrections.
The wheel simply goes where it needs to nice and cleanly. With a controller I have to touch, tap or adjust my angle in more situations which is slower. It was about the only thing I noticed immediately when first trying the wheel. It was nice but I lacked the patience and then my new TV arrived and I really didn't want to go full on McGuyver meets Tim Taylor to build a riser for it so I packed it in and that was that.
Its my opinion, based on my brain, no testing, no research, that Forza is optimized for the input device you use. It isn't optimized for best use by one thing or another.
If one device beats another, it is simply because whatever is done to deal with the lack of or the inclusion of features or degrees of travel for steering, has a broader effect on the input device but with that positive, there will be a negative introduced somewhere.
WIth the logic that a controller is better because it has less than an inch of travel means more aids for steering, then wouldn't that mean that wheels would be ranked like this for better to best: 90, 180, 270, 360, 720, 900 degrees?
Does that hold true based on degrees?
Does that hold tru becuase the higher degree wheels are more expensive?
or does that hold true at all?
Anyway... interesting.
I sometimes forget that this is a game and "real world physics" don't apply
the smilies suck
My opinion that Forza is optimized for a controller (and it is just an opinion) is based on the fact that Forza is a console game period.
Consoles are sold with controllers and say perhaps 99% (just to use a number) of games on a console are pure controller games.
No one, saving Parcells perhaps
, uses a wheel with Halo (I tossed Parcells in there as a possible reason for his abysmal Halo performances
).
So when you are trying to market a game into this market you need to make sure it works well and really well with those you trying to get to buy the game.
The wheel users are important but they are a bit of a 'locked in' market, if they have and are using a wheel they are already likely to be buying your game regardless.
Also even in Forza wheel users are a small minority of the total game purchasers.
So in the end you need to make sure that the game works really well with a controller unless you are ok with a niche market simulator product, and I don't think Turn10 or Microsoft are.
What tradeoffs are in the game as result I don't really know, but the bottom line for Forza as a console game is it better work well with a controller.
But arnt these assistes turned of when you put it on Simulation Steering?
AS i find racing with my pad on Normal steering it feels very slow and numb.
Although a lot of Controller bashing in here
Sorry, didn't intend for it to come across that way
To be honest I came up with this quip about Parcells using a wheel to play Halo (cause I may actually be better at that game then he is). And then I just went off from there....
I used a controller when first started with Forza 2, didnt switch to a wheel until Forza 3.
Have not really used a controller much at all in Forza 4 let alone played with the different settings.
So please take my ramblings as the bs they largely are (except for part about Parcells, he really is bad at Halo
)
Don't think anyone is controller bashing Church, I used 'em for years...though I started on a wheel on the PC way back, since the first Xbox I was on a controller. Blame the clan for my turning back into a wheel racer. As we treat it as more than just a game, I felt it was time to go the whole hog and build up a sim racing rig. But not everyone can do that, folks with young families have other priorities, and rightly so.
Yes I hold the wheel is a better experience...after all if you are simulating driving a car then that is the way to do it. Sim cockpit, gear sticks and load cell brakes all bring the user closer to the experience of actual driving. The question is...is that the best way to be fast? Or do controllers have the edge.
I do think from a pure speed point of view they do, I follow the ghosts of controller users all the time. They can change gear faster (this may change when my CSR get ACL) The steering assists built in for controllers may...I repeat may also give a slight edge in cornering.
Threads like this do tend to divide folk into two camps and become an a versus b argument, but that was not the intention nor the point. It boils down to what is the best tool for climbing the public leader boards.
I don't think the fact there are less wheel users explains away the dominance of controllers at the top...A showdown would be interesting, the clans fastest wheel, against the fastest controller. A range of tracks and cars. Note I said fasted not best. We all know there is a world of difference between hot lapping and racing. When it comes to racing I don't think what you use is as important as mind set and overall skill.
I go back and forth between the two. I have also been soundly beaten in races by both types of racers. So, as far as what's faster...well, I beleive a lot of it is just natural (or supernatural) ability on the part of the driver. Just like a great tune doesn't neccesarily make someone faster.
I like the controller because if I'm building/tuning/painting I can go back and forth between those activities relatively easily. I really love the wheel for the immersion factor. Just try the wheel with your favorite car at the Nurburgring and revel in the feedback and the experience as you enter and make your way through the "Carousel". Awesomeness.
Having a comfortable set up with the wheel is critical. Using the right settings is also critical. After using one particular set up I came to the realization that I had to try tweaking it. Then I tweaked it some more. My main problem is using the SEN set at 270 so I have raised it and it's feeling better. But I know that there is more for me to do. It's all subjective in the end but they are both great. It's just that one set up might feel more "natural" than the other for a given driver.
Here I go with the opinion thing again and this time I will try to leave Parcells out (whoops, sorry
).
I think it is in general the skill/experience of the person more than the hardware...
There are at least two or more controller users in Wed night rFactor racing and they seem to have no problems being competitive.
Driving the Redbull X10 in GT5 appears to be a lot easier with a wheel than a controller but when they have an X10 challenge there will inevitably be several controller users at or near the top.
Not 100% sure but my impression is that controller/pad is supported across 'all' the racing sims including iRacing. If controller/pad use was not viable would it be so widely supported?
My point about console games and Forza in particular is they need to make the game attractive for the first time user who almost certainly is using a controller....
But once you step outside the game defaults... there is no doubt we have a 'lot' of very fast drivers here using both controller and wheel some switching at ease between the two. So in the end skill/experience likely matter by far the most.
now about the view modes...
Don't forget about the assists. Braking line anyone?