We need more open house nights, more League/ ladders, Tourneys, etc.... To get people back into the forums. It also wouldn't hurt to ban Lala calamari, not to many people are fond of him.
I think this a great topic and think there have been some good comments made, but I dont need an email every time a new one is added. How in the hell do I unsubscribe to this thread?
I think this a great topic and think there have been some good comments made, but I dont need an email every time a new one is added. How in the hell do I unsubscribe to this thread?
At the top of the page, click on Settings. Once there, click on Notifications. Then click on Subscriptions. Unsubscribe any/all subscriptions you want... Profit!
I think this a great topic and think there have been some good comments made, but I dont need an email every time a new one is added. How in the hell do I unsubscribe to this thread?
Here's where I think things are somewhat limited and it's not due to this site, but in Xbox Lve. In the Xbox F=friends lists You have a choice in these options. You have your personal friends, you can create "clan" and "game" friends lists or subscribe to them. But there is no one all encompassing group that I can click on like "20ld2play" and be instantly part of a group of hundreds if not thousands of players. Most people rarely include invites to the people on their friends list as a first option, and on a game list coming up a distant second. Ultimately those two are the best options to find people with similar interests as you.
I've helped create clans, I've left them for personal reasons. My gaming habits and genre choices are fickle of late. I'm even a member of a clan I really only play the game for the first few weeks before getting tired of it. The MechWarrior Online (PC) game I'm playing now is in the public forums, if I have a say about it it won't become a clan. Let people come and go by their own leave without having to ask permission to join in the first place. Just be big enough to state that you're losing interest in the game and let me remove that person from my friends list because their interests have changed. No harm no foul.
Hmm, maybe I forgot to hit the button, try number 2.
Maybe there could be an option for hte overlord of a clan to make the clan viewable to the public. Some clans wouldn;t wnat this while others would. I could see 2o4f and GSN doing this because it would be a recruitment tool, show people what it done in the clan.
Hmm somebody doesn't read all the threads 2O4F would like things as far as we are concerned left as they are at least with reference to us...we are not a Clan anyway, and open to all. As I discussed further up the thread we have no problem with recruitment, three new members in the last two days and at over 800 strong (not all active of course) the numbers speak for themselves.
A new 2O2Race forum is on the cards, once again not a Clan and this will be an open forum with 2O4F members joining as well as folk from other forums who are into PC Sim racing. This we hope will fill the need for a more open race forum. It will focus on PC Sim Racing but will be open to any race game and platform people want to talk about.
The limitations of Xbox Live friend lists effect us too, we get around then by ensuring the people joining any particular series get on the friend list of at least one of the organizers of the series that way they can be guaranteed an invite on the nights of the races...
Hmm somebody doesn't read all the threads 2O4F would like things as far as we are concerned left as they are at least with reference to us...we are not a Clan anyway, and open to all.
for the purpose of this thread:
private group = clan
I just tried to access your forum and I got "access denied"...private group.
I think asking for your group to be excluded for what is being discussed here is ridiculous. I too want my group left as is despite what happens with the rest of the site. I'm not gonna get it though.
my hope is that we can make it work so that all the groups can keep what they have.
I have read none of the prior posts...Oh, and hi guys and gals...I have effectively taken a year off from the site.
Would I personally care if clans went away? Not particularly, but that's only because I'm not involved in an active clan. I'm sure other people would be more impacted and hate this idea. Would taking away clans help grow the site? I sorta doubt it, but really who can predict that?
I think what Deep did with that "open for all" Thursday Halo night...THAT would grow the site and really hones in on the spirit of what 2o2p is all about and why I showed up years ago. What do we all have in common? We all like at least 1 game. We're old. We have adult demands on our time. We want to play with people like us.
So if "open for all" groups were available every day of the week for all the major multiplayer games, I'm sure we'd see more people come test the waters and join the site. I'm sure more clans would filter off, but as long as you keep the stream moving, all good. Just takes people to run that shit.
OK... So I talked to J (doodi) about all this earlier in the week, and bounced a lot of ideas back and forth. I've now read and re-read the threads (and blog) about this issue, and I'll weigh in.
First, when we started the site here, there were no clan forums, despite what people remember. It was one big-ass forum where everyone shot the shit about Halo or off topic shit or whatever. Clans came on shortly after launch, but were primarily used for talking strategies or team rosters or whatever. Halo chatter still went on in the general forums. Like J said, as clans grew larger and more numerous, and as more games were being played, talk of everything moved to clan forums. As a member of multiple clans myself, I certainly see the benefits and enjoy the privacy, but at the same time the current setup is choking out growth.
Since we all love examples, and someone mentioned the "party" example and "cliq-ing" already in this thread, I'll use that. Let's say you advertise a big open party. Everyone who already regularly attends these parties is telling everyone to come. When it's time for the party, the all these new people show up, but the majority of the party-goers are upstairs hiding in bedrooms doing coke. Occasionally someone will pop out, say hi while they grab a beer, then head back to the privacy of the bedroom to do 18-inch rails. The only non-new people in the main party are a handful of people, but they can't interact with all of the new people coming to check out the party. Before long, all those new people decide the party is lame (because they aren't privy to any coolness) and take off...
Such is where we're at now. What the right answer is, we don't know yet. I love 2old2play. I spend a bunch of time every week putting out a podcast, and thousands of dollars a year on 2old2play related business travel. Advertisers are out there. They love 2old2play, but they can't see the bulk of our audience because they are all hiding.
Such is where we're at now. What the right answer is, we don't know yet. I love 2old2play. I spend a bunch of time every week putting out a podcast, and thousands of dollars a year on 2old2play related business travel. Advertisers are out there. They love 2old2play, but they can't see the bulk of our audience because they are all hiding.
It's funny that we've actually been having a discussion in 2pwn that the clan forums are dead because too many people have moved conversations to G+. I was one complaining that conversations should be moved back to the site, but maybe that's not the answer. Maybe opening up the clan forums, or the majority of threads in them, is actually the answer to the problems site wide. Let's start by making all clans open to the public, but when starting new thread in the clan forum, maybe give the thread starter an option to make the thread a public or private one. That way the majority of clans would be open for public perusal, but the option to have other things kept private will retain the feeling of family and privacy that many value in their clan.
I don't know, just an idea from a guy who's been here since 2005, written articles, blah, blah, blah...
I hear the pleas to step out of the clan forums, and part of me says, "yeah, let's do it." But then the realistic part of me says that is a short-term solution. We might all come out and post in the main forums for a day, a week, a month, but unless the very nature of the main forums has somehow changed, then the cycle will repeat itself.
Using Derek's party example (Derek's Party is a good band name), it would be like everyone came out of the rooms when the pizza got there, but went right back up when the pizza was gone. To keep folks downstairs, we need pizza, and those people need to stay hungry or we need to provide new and better pizzas regularly.
That's again why I don't think mixers are the answer. They work short-term, but mixers are about gaming, and forums are about sharing ideas. One does not automatically translate to the other.it's like saying everyone who goes to a ballgame will go on that team's site after the game to talk about it, and then stay to talk about other things. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do some mixers, I just don't see them as a solution to the site issue.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
Yes it would be possible. However the issue would then be having multiple forums for people to keep track off. That would be my main concern. For instance, if someone in 2o2phalo has something really great to post about Halo, and I was a new user (or even an old one) would I really want to keep track of 2 different Halo areas? Maybe with the help of Overlords they can shadow those posts in their own forum, but keep the conversations in 1 centralized location. I do love the idea of cutting down the main forums. I"m going to work on bringing everything with 5 forums. I think having great topics is important.
In the end it probably comes down to a rethinking of how and why clan forums are used. If the big push to keep them is because of the privacy they provide, then maybe it should only be used for that purpose. What I mean is, clan sites could only be used for personal information and game related/off topic fun posts could go in the main forums.
A side issue is that I know many of you state you love 2o2p, but I have seen several posts that are along the lines of "2o2p hurts my clan" and really care nothing about what happens here. This sentiment is not rare either. I'm not sure why people have grown so angry with 2o2p, but I think it begs the question of why. Nothing I have done at 2o2p has been to hurt anyones experience here. My goal with V3 wasn't a master plan to kill off the very thing i've spent 7 years building. Any missteps are certainly not done on purpose and the goal of this conversation is to bring to light a very real problem. On the flip side, this is probably the most productive thread that I've seen in the last 7 years of 2o2p. Real ideas, real concerns, and a universal understanding that something got to change.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
Yes it would be possible. However the issue would then be having multiple forums for people to keep track off. That would be my main concern. For instance, if someone in 2o2phalo has something really great to post about Halo, and I was a new user (or even an old one) would I really want to keep track of 2 different Halo areas? Maybe with the help of Overlords they can shadow those posts in their own forum, but keep the conversations in 1 centralized location. I do love the idea of cutting down the main forums. I"m going to work on bringing everything with 5 forums. I think having great topics is important.
In the end it probably comes down to a rethinking of how and why clan forums are used. If the big push to keep them is because of the privacy they provide, then maybe it should only be used for that purpose. What I mean is, clan sites could only be used for personal information and game related/off topic fun posts could go in the main forums.
A side issue is that I know many of you state you love 2o2p, but I have seen several posts that are along the lines of "2o2p hurts my clan" and really care nothing about what happens here. This sentiment is not rare either. I'm not sure why people have grown so angry with 2o2p, but I think it begs the question of why. Nothing I have done at 2o2p has been to hurt anyones experience here. My goal with V3 wasn't a master plan to kill off the very thing i've spent 7 years building. Any missteps are certainly not done on purpose and the goal of this conversation is to bring to light a very real problem. On the flip side, this is probably the most productive thread that I've seen in the last 7 years of 2o2p. Real ideas, real concerns, and a universal understanding that something got to change.
I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
So you are suggesting arbitrarily giving the MAJORITY the shaft and making them leave??
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
So you are suggesting arbitrarily giving the MAJORITY the shaft and making them leave??
I'm saying that I don't see how it is broken, and see no need to fix anything.
Open up the clan forums-People leave
Drop some subforums-forum activity seems to dwindle
I'm saying that taking a consensus is a very bad idea. that's what the staff/admins/mods are for. To make decisions for the community-threads to close, people to ban, general vision for the site.
It's not our site after all, we just keep using the bandwidth and Doodi foots the bill. I would say it's not our decision to make.
I'm saying there are different levels within each "game" scene. Forza has racers, tuners, and painters. Halo has forgers, Competitive players, and meatshields. CoD has Hardcore, Objective, and TDM types.
Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
So yes, I say since people will be unhappy to open clan forums; keep them closed.
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
So you are suggesting arbitrarily giving the MAJORITY the shaft and making them leave??
I'm saying that I don't see how it is broken, and see no need to fix anything.
Open up the clan forums-People leave
Drop some subforums-forum activity seems to dwindle
I'm saying that taking a consensus is a very bad idea. that's what the staff/admins/mods are for. To make decisions for the community-threads to close, people to ban, general vision for the site.
It's not our site after all, we just keep using the bandwidth and Doodi foots the bill. I would say it's not our decision to make.
I'm saying there are different levels within each "game" scene. Forza has racers, tuners, and painters. Halo has forgers, Competitive players, and meatshields. CoD has Hardcore, Objective, and TDM types.
Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
So yes, I say since people will be unhappy to open clan forums; keep them closed.
The minute you are not willing to hear what your customers think...that is when a business fails. Make no mistake about it...this is a business...and we are the customers. Granted...Doodi isn't looking to retire. I assume he would like enough revenue to sustain and grow the site.
Whether that revenue is derived directly through donations or subscriptions....or.....it is derived through advertising...advertising which brings in revenue because we are here to see it and click on it....we are still looking for revenue.
If you are afraid to look at raw figures...there is no way other than blind luck to get yourself out of a hole.
As far as the staff/admins/mods being here to make decisions for us...we could debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. I think they would all agree that there is a problem here...not easy to solve.
It would behoove everyone to remember that our very best thinking and decision making...has gotten us here at the bottom of the hole we are in. So...we may want to not rely on it so much.
All I am suggesting is collecting the data. What is done with and what steps are taken are obviously out of our hands.
The minute you are not willing to hear what your customers think...that is when a business fails. Make no mistake about it...this is a business...and we are the customers. Granted...Doodi isn't looking to retire. I assume he would like enough revenue to sustain and grow the site.
Whether that revenue is derived directly through donations or subscriptions....or.....it is derived through advertising...advertising which brings in revenue because we are here to see it and click on it....we are still looking for revenue.
If you are afraid to look at raw figures...there is no way other than blind luck to get yourself out of a hole.
As far as the staff/admins/mods being here to make decisions for us...we could debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. I think they would all agree that there is a problem here...not easy to solve.
It would behoove everyone to remember that our very best thinking and decision making...has gotten us here at the bottom of the hole we are in. So...we may want to not rely on it so much.
All I am suggesting is collecting the data. What is done with and what steps are taken are obviously out of our hands.
Ultimately i think you're right. When I first started 2o2p it was really just a hobby site and I had no aspirations at all. After a while I thought, "maybe i can provide this service for a living!" It was in those years that I really went after a member base and tried to build a better site with V2. However something changed a few years later that caused me to no longer view 2o2p as a business. When I saw clans like 2old4duty and PCP leave it slowly chipped away at me. It wasn't something that happened over night, but when you see long time members use your resources and bounce it affects you. In a lot of ways I regret how I acted with GG in the same regard. It's no ones fault, but it wears on you.
It started to really make me think, maybe I need to go back to thinking of it as a business again. When I do though, I just end up saying, why am I thousands in debt, with people who hate me, while I waste what little free time I have working on 2o2p? The reason is simple, because it's not a business. I do it because I LOVE the people I've met through this site. I've gone to their homes on vacations, had them stay at my homes, built fantastic LANs and was able to donate thousands to charity. Simply put it makes my life better. I'm not sure if I can go back to thinking about it as a business again.
The minute you are not willing to hear what your customers think...that is when a business fails. Make no mistake about it...this is a business...and we are the customers. Granted...Doodi isn't looking to retire. I assume he would like enough revenue to sustain and grow the site.
Whether that revenue is derived directly through donations or subscriptions....or.....it is derived through advertising...advertising which brings in revenue because we are here to see it and click on it....we are still looking for revenue.
If you are afraid to look at raw figures...there is no way other than blind luck to get yourself out of a hole.
As far as the staff/admins/mods being here to make decisions for us...we could debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. I think they would all agree that there is a problem here...not easy to solve.
It would behoove everyone to remember that our very best thinking and decision making...has gotten us here at the bottom of the hole we are in. So...we may want to not rely on it so much.
All I am suggesting is collecting the data. What is done with and what steps are taken are obviously out of our hands.
Ultimately i think you're right. When I first started 2o2p it was really just a hobby site and I had no aspirations at all. After a while I thought, "maybe i can provide this service for a living!" It was in those years that I really went after a member base and tried to build a better site with V2. However something changed a few years later that caused me to no longer view 2o2p as a business. When I saw clans like 2old4duty and PCP leave it slowly chipped away at me. It wasn't something that happened over night, but when you see long time members use your resources and bounce it affects you. In a lot of ways I regret how I acted with GG in the same regard. It's no ones fault, but it wears on you.
It started to really make me think, maybe I need to go back to thinking of it as a business again. When I do though, I just end up saying, why am I thousands in debt, with people who hate me, while I waste what little free time I have working on 2o2p? The reason is simple, because it's not a business. I do it because I LOVE the people I've met through this site. I've gone to their homes on vacations, had them stay at my homes, built fantastic LANs and was able to donate thousands to charity. Simply put it makes my life better. [b] I'm not sure if I can go back to thinking about it as a business again. [/b] [emphasis mine. plato]
Doodi, most things in life are more like a business. Or rather, most successful businesses are like the good relationships in our lives. The reason I still find 2o2p to be the gaming community I like being a part of is because of all the ways the community has given back, and the way it's members help each other out.
Being a business and a hobby aren't mutually exclusive.
Growing 2o2p is like growing a business or a WoW guild. First, start by determining what differentiates 2o2p among other gaming communities. Figure out what target audience comprises potential (and current) members. Are there diverse groups/targets that make up the memberbase? If so, what are the needs of each? How can 2o2p meet the needs of each? If it's one market (based on something like usage patterns, interests, whatever. Remember, over 25 isn't the basis of segmentation, its the qualifying dimension). Then you can make a survey, and it should go out to as many different places as possible. Preferably, it wouldn't be lablled as 2o2p, but as a survey asking people about their socializing patterns in online communities.
Also, even as a hobby, you can set goals. It's implied that you have goals in mind, because you're not content with the activity levels as they are, nor with the usage trends.
Once you have an idea of how you'd like 2o2p to be, and what your goals are, the rest can be sorted out. Start with where you want to end up, before you try determining how best to get there.
Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
Can you explain why this would be? I just went over to the forza forum and 9 of the first ten threads are not about game action or the game itself. How does having a thread titled "looking for racing peeps" or something like that not get traction from other racers no matter what forum it's in?
I then went to racing games forum - 5 threads total.
The forum with the most posts is - surprise - the Halo forum. I added up the totals from all the other forums in the "Divisons" category and it added up to 1200 less posts then the Halo forum. Then I added up all the posts in the "gaming forums" area and they added up to to 1600 fewer posts then the Halo forum. the only forum even close to the halo forum in terms of post count is off-topic, and even that is 600 behind.
So I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted you, I'm just trying to understand how we're in danger of hurting the "flow" of anything with consolidation? If anything, most of the forums except halo and off-topic don't flow at all - they trickle.
So I don't cruise the main forums barely ever, so feel free to pick on me for an "outside" opinion, but I HAVE built tons of websites and I DO manage several communties at work with thousands of users. I think the site tried to anticipate demand, and that is very tricky business. With consolidation, users who really want their own space could petition for it, but I think what would happen is that people who would have never otherwise joined a separate forum will notice an interesting thread and the next thing you know, they're out buying a game they wouldn't have otherwise bought and playing with folks they wouldn't have otherwise found.
A user survey is a potentially useful tool. Survey building is a skill unto itself though, as it's easy to build a survey to get the result you want rather than a true gauge. I know this because I've been an instructional designer for 12 years and know more than I care to admit about assessment and gap analysis. We're trying to change behavior here, and the two ways you do that is to make people want to change or not give them a choice. I think we're in "make people want to change" mode now with ideas like mixers and pleas to use the main fourms more. Those may work and they're worth trying. But if not, you're left with "not give them a choice," which can backfire but can also work wonders. Not having to choose can be a good thing too. I love it when my wife decides where we're going out to eat and I don't have to think about it or choose.
All just ideas here, and I don't claim to have the answers, but from the sounds of things, some drastic attempts need to be made, so trying to suggest what those changes might be.
Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
Can you explain why this would be? I just went over to the forza forum and 9 of the first ten threads are not about game action or the game itself. How does having a thread titled "looking for racing peeps" or something like that not get traction from other racers no matter what forum it's in?
I then went to racing games forum - 5 threads total.
The forum with the most posts is - surprise - the Halo forum. I added up the totals from all the other forums in the "Divisons" category and it added up to 1200 less posts then the Halo forum. Then I added up all the posts in the "gaming forums" area and they added up to to 1600 fewer posts then the Halo forum. the only forum even close to the halo forum in terms of post count is off-topic, and even that is 600 behind.
So I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted you, I'm just trying to understand how we're in danger of hurting the "flow" of anything with consolidation? If anything, most of the forums except halo and off-topic don't flow at all - they trickle.
So I don't cruise the main forums barely ever, so feel free to pick on me for an "outside" opinion, but I HAVE built tons of websites and I DO manage several communties at work with thousands of users. I think the site tried to anticipate demand, and that is very tricky business. With consolidation, users who really want their own space could petition for it, but I think what would happen is that people who would have never otherwise joined a separate forum will notice an interesting thread and the next thing you know, they're out buying a game they wouldn't have otherwise bought and playing with folks they wouldn't have otherwise found.
A user survey is a potentially useful tool. Survey building is a skill unto itself though, as it's easy to build a survey to get the result you want rather than a true gauge. I know this because I've been an instructional designer for 12 years and know more than I care to admit about assessment and gap analysis. We're trying to change behavior here, and the two ways you do that is to make people want to change or not give them a choice. I think we're in "make people want to change" mode now with ideas like mixers and pleas to use the main fourms more. Those may work and they're worth trying. But if not, you're left with "not give them a choice," which can backfire but can also work wonders. Not having to choose can be a good thing too. I love it when my wife decides where we're going out to eat and I don't have to think about it or choose.
All just ideas here, and I don't claim to have the answers, but from the sounds of things, some drastic attempts need to be made, so trying to suggest what those changes might be.
You will be disolving what is keeping the people who are here "in hiding" here. Without that, many will find other smaller communities or form their own.
If people want something out in the open, it is posted in the general game forum, or in off topic. If it is meant for our clan peeps, we keep it in the private forums.
There is no need for opening everything up. 2o2p is a large gaming community with it's own subculture within the clan community. To stop fostering the clans, would cause pretty much an implosion of the subculture. And people would either lurk, or disappear.
BTW, Halo has sooooo many posts because we "comp" gamers, don't like changes to the game that are quirky or gimmicky, as such, that's where the banter comes from. AND most of us know each other enough to be able to talk a little smack and not get offended.
If push comes to shove Doodi, create paid priveledges for server maintenance and fees that allow people to keep on trucking in private forums. I know SEVERAL sites that offer perks for paid members, and am an annually contributing member to the one's who do. I'm not saying whore the site out, but if I have to pay 10 bucks a year to keep the family spirit of the clans I am in alive, so be it.
We need more open house nights, more League/ ladders, Tourneys, etc.... To get people back into the forums. It also wouldn't hurt to ban Lala calamari, not to many people are fond of him.
Wise man, you speak the truth.
Doodi, this is where I'd put the +1.
I think this a great topic and think there have been some good comments made, but I dont need an email every time a new one is added. How in the hell do I unsubscribe to this thread?
At the top of the page, click on Settings. Once there, click on Notifications. Then click on Subscriptions. Unsubscribe any/all subscriptions you want... Profit!
http://youtu.be/NV47ZxbEluI
Audio starts at about 5 seconds
Or at the bottom of this thread. You can unsub to this thread only.
I would just like to thank ...
...myself...
for being a shit stirring agent of change and having the unmitigated gall to piss all over complete strangers.
You are all welcome.
I dont think it's a coincidence that traffic died down about the same time the NSFW forum disappeared.
Here's where I think things are somewhat limited and it's not due to this site, but in Xbox Lve. In the Xbox F=friends lists You have a choice in these options. You have your personal friends, you can create "clan" and "game" friends lists or subscribe to them. But there is no one all encompassing group that I can click on like "20ld2play" and be instantly part of a group of hundreds if not thousands of players. Most people rarely include invites to the people on their friends list as a first option, and on a game list coming up a distant second. Ultimately those two are the best options to find people with similar interests as you.
I've helped create clans, I've left them for personal reasons. My gaming habits and genre choices are fickle of late. I'm even a member of a clan I really only play the game for the first few weeks before getting tired of it. The MechWarrior Online (PC) game I'm playing now is in the public forums, if I have a say about it it won't become a clan. Let people come and go by their own leave without having to ask permission to join in the first place. Just be big enough to state that you're losing interest in the game and let me remove that person from my friends list because their interests have changed. No harm no foul.
Hmm, maybe I forgot to hit the button, try number 2.
Maybe there could be an option for hte overlord of a clan to make the clan viewable to the public. Some clans wouldn;t wnat this while others would. I could see 2o4f and GSN doing this because it would be a recruitment tool, show people what it done in the clan.
Hmm somebody doesn't read all the threads
2O4F would like things as far as we are concerned left as they are at least with reference to us...we are not a Clan anyway, and open to all. As I discussed further up the thread we have no problem with recruitment, three new members in the last two days and at over 800 strong (not all active of course) the numbers speak for themselves.
A new 2O2Race forum is on the cards, once again not a Clan and this will be an open forum with 2O4F members joining as well as folk from other forums who are into PC Sim racing. This we hope will fill the need for a more open race forum. It will focus on PC Sim Racing but will be open to any race game and platform people want to talk about.
The limitations of Xbox Live friend lists effect us too, we get around then by ensuring the people joining any particular series get on the friend list of at least one of the organizers of the series that way they can be guaranteed an invite on the nights of the races...
I have read none of the prior posts...Oh, and hi guys and gals...I have effectively taken a year off from the site.
Would I personally care if clans went away? Not particularly, but that's only because I'm not involved in an active clan. I'm sure other people would be more impacted and hate this idea. Would taking away clans help grow the site? I sorta doubt it, but really who can predict that?
I think what Deep did with that "open for all" Thursday Halo night...THAT would grow the site and really hones in on the spirit of what 2o2p is all about and why I showed up years ago. What do we all have in common? We all like at least 1 game. We're old. We have adult demands on our time. We want to play with people like us.
So if "open for all" groups were available every day of the week for all the major multiplayer games, I'm sure we'd see more people come test the waters and join the site. I'm sure more clans would filter off, but as long as you keep the stream moving, all good. Just takes people to run that shit.
OK... So I talked to J (doodi) about all this earlier in the week, and bounced a lot of ideas back and forth. I've now read and re-read the threads (and blog) about this issue, and I'll weigh in.
First, when we started the site here, there were no clan forums, despite what people remember. It was one big-ass forum where everyone shot the shit about Halo or off topic shit or whatever. Clans came on shortly after launch, but were primarily used for talking strategies or team rosters or whatever. Halo chatter still went on in the general forums. Like J said, as clans grew larger and more numerous, and as more games were being played, talk of everything moved to clan forums. As a member of multiple clans myself, I certainly see the benefits and enjoy the privacy, but at the same time the current setup is choking out growth.
Since we all love examples, and someone mentioned the "party" example and "cliq-ing" already in this thread, I'll use that. Let's say you advertise a big open party. Everyone who already regularly attends these parties is telling everyone to come. When it's time for the party, the all these new people show up, but the majority of the party-goers are upstairs hiding in bedrooms doing coke. Occasionally someone will pop out, say hi while they grab a beer, then head back to the privacy of the bedroom to do 18-inch rails. The only non-new people in the main party are a handful of people, but they can't interact with all of the new people coming to check out the party. Before long, all those new people decide the party is lame (because they aren't privy to any coolness) and take off...
Such is where we're at now. What the right answer is, we don't know yet. I love 2old2play. I spend a bunch of time every week putting out a podcast, and thousands of dollars a year on 2old2play related business travel. Advertisers are out there. They love 2old2play, but they can't see the bulk of our audience because they are all hiding.
Come out and play...
-D
Who are you?
Always the helper...
Wait! Do I have to share my coke too?
It's funny that we've actually been having a discussion in 2pwn that the clan forums are dead because too many people have moved conversations to G+. I was one complaining that conversations should be moved back to the site, but maybe that's not the answer. Maybe opening up the clan forums, or the majority of threads in them, is actually the answer to the problems site wide. Let's start by making all clans open to the public, but when starting new thread in the clan forum, maybe give the thread starter an option to make the thread a public or private one. That way the majority of clans would be open for public perusal, but the option to have other things kept private will retain the feeling of family and privacy that many value in their clan.
I don't know, just an idea from a guy who's been here since 2005, written articles, blah, blah, blah...
I hear the pleas to step out of the clan forums, and part of me says, "yeah, let's do it." But then the realistic part of me says that is a short-term solution. We might all come out and post in the main forums for a day, a week, a month, but unless the very nature of the main forums has somehow changed, then the cycle will repeat itself.
Using Derek's party example (Derek's Party is a good band name), it would be like everyone came out of the rooms when the pizza got there, but went right back up when the pizza was gone. To keep folks downstairs, we need pizza, and those people need to stay hungry or we need to provide new and better pizzas regularly.
That's again why I don't think mixers are the answer. They work short-term, but mixers are about gaming, and forums are about sharing ideas. One does not automatically translate to the other.it's like saying everyone who goes to a ballgame will go on that team's site after the game to talk about it, and then stay to talk about other things. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do some mixers, I just don't see them as a solution to the site issue.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
Yes it would be possible. However the issue would then be having multiple forums for people to keep track off. That would be my main concern. For instance, if someone in 2o2phalo has something really great to post about Halo, and I was a new user (or even an old one) would I really want to keep track of 2 different Halo areas? Maybe with the help of Overlords they can shadow those posts in their own forum, but keep the conversations in 1 centralized location. I do love the idea of cutting down the main forums. I"m going to work on bringing everything with 5 forums. I think having great topics is important.
In the end it probably comes down to a rethinking of how and why clan forums are used. If the big push to keep them is because of the privacy they provide, then maybe it should only be used for that purpose. What I mean is, clan sites could only be used for personal information and game related/off topic fun posts could go in the main forums.
A side issue is that I know many of you state you love 2o2p, but I have seen several posts that are along the lines of "2o2p hurts my clan" and really care nothing about what happens here. This sentiment is not rare either. I'm not sure why people have grown so angry with 2o2p, but I think it begs the question of why. Nothing I have done at 2o2p has been to hurt anyones experience here. My goal with V3 wasn't a master plan to kill off the very thing i've spent 7 years building. Any missteps are certainly not done on purpose and the goal of this conversation is to bring to light a very real problem. On the flip side, this is probably the most productive thread that I've seen in the last 7 years of 2o2p. Real ideas, real concerns, and a universal understanding that something got to change.
I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
So you are suggesting arbitrarily giving the MAJORITY the shaft and making them leave??
I'm saying that I don't see how it is broken, and see no need to fix anything.
Open up the clan forums-People leave
Drop some subforums-forum activity seems to dwindle
I'm saying that taking a consensus is a very bad idea. that's what the staff/admins/mods are for. To make decisions for the community-threads to close, people to ban, general vision for the site.
It's not our site after all, we just keep using the bandwidth and Doodi foots the bill. I would say it's not our decision to make.
I'm saying there are different levels within each "game" scene. Forza has racers, tuners, and painters. Halo has forgers, Competitive players, and meatshields. CoD has Hardcore, Objective, and TDM types.
Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
So yes, I say since people will be unhappy to open clan forums; keep them closed.
The minute you are not willing to hear what your customers think...that is when a business fails. Make no mistake about it...this is a business...and we are the customers. Granted...Doodi isn't looking to retire. I assume he would like enough revenue to sustain and grow the site.
Whether that revenue is derived directly through donations or subscriptions....or.....it is derived through advertising...advertising which brings in revenue because we are here to see it and click on it....we are still looking for revenue.
If you are afraid to look at raw figures...there is no way other than blind luck to get yourself out of a hole.
As far as the staff/admins/mods being here to make decisions for us...we could debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. I think they would all agree that there is a problem here...not easy to solve.
It would behoove everyone to remember that our very best thinking and decision making...has gotten us here at the bottom of the hole we are in. So...we may want to not rely on it so much.
All I am suggesting is collecting the data. What is done with and what steps are taken are obviously out of our hands.
Ultimately i think you're right. When I first started 2o2p it was really just a hobby site and I had no aspirations at all. After a while I thought, "maybe i can provide this service for a living!" It was in those years that I really went after a member base and tried to build a better site with V2. However something changed a few years later that caused me to no longer view 2o2p as a business. When I saw clans like 2old4duty and PCP leave it slowly chipped away at me. It wasn't something that happened over night, but when you see long time members use your resources and bounce it affects you. In a lot of ways I regret how I acted with GG in the same regard. It's no ones fault, but it wears on you.
It started to really make me think, maybe I need to go back to thinking of it as a business again. When I do though, I just end up saying, why am I thousands in debt, with people who hate me, while I waste what little free time I have working on 2o2p? The reason is simple, because it's not a business. I do it because I LOVE the people I've met through this site. I've gone to their homes on vacations, had them stay at my homes, built fantastic LANs and was able to donate thousands to charity. Simply put it makes my life better. I'm not sure if I can go back to thinking about it as a business again.
Doodi, most things in life are more like a business. Or rather, most successful businesses are like the good relationships in our lives. The reason I still find 2o2p to be the gaming community I like being a part of is because of all the ways the community has given back, and the way it's members help each other out.
Being a business and a hobby aren't mutually exclusive.
Growing 2o2p is like growing a business or a WoW guild. First, start by determining what differentiates 2o2p among other gaming communities. Figure out what target audience comprises potential (and current) members. Are there diverse groups/targets that make up the memberbase? If so, what are the needs of each? How can 2o2p meet the needs of each? If it's one market (based on something like usage patterns, interests, whatever. Remember, over 25 isn't the basis of segmentation, its the qualifying dimension). Then you can make a survey, and it should go out to as many different places as possible. Preferably, it wouldn't be lablled as 2o2p, but as a survey asking people about their socializing patterns in online communities.
Also, even as a hobby, you can set goals. It's implied that you have goals in mind, because you're not content with the activity levels as they are, nor with the usage trends.
Once you have an idea of how you'd like 2o2p to be, and what your goals are, the rest can be sorted out. Start with where you want to end up, before you try determining how best to get there.
Can you explain why this would be? I just went over to the forza forum and 9 of the first ten threads are not about game action or the game itself. How does having a thread titled "looking for racing peeps" or something like that not get traction from other racers no matter what forum it's in?
I then went to racing games forum - 5 threads total.
The forum with the most posts is - surprise - the Halo forum. I added up the totals from all the other forums in the "Divisons" category and it added up to 1200 less posts then the Halo forum. Then I added up all the posts in the "gaming forums" area and they added up to to 1600 fewer posts then the Halo forum. the only forum even close to the halo forum in terms of post count is off-topic, and even that is 600 behind.
So I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted you, I'm just trying to understand how we're in danger of hurting the "flow" of anything with consolidation? If anything, most of the forums except halo and off-topic don't flow at all - they trickle.
So I don't cruise the main forums barely ever, so feel free to pick on me for an "outside" opinion, but I HAVE built tons of websites and I DO manage several communties at work with thousands of users. I think the site tried to anticipate demand, and that is very tricky business. With consolidation, users who really want their own space could petition for it, but I think what would happen is that people who would have never otherwise joined a separate forum will notice an interesting thread and the next thing you know, they're out buying a game they wouldn't have otherwise bought and playing with folks they wouldn't have otherwise found.
A user survey is a potentially useful tool. Survey building is a skill unto itself though, as it's easy to build a survey to get the result you want rather than a true gauge. I know this because I've been an instructional designer for 12 years and know more than I care to admit about assessment and gap analysis. We're trying to change behavior here, and the two ways you do that is to make people want to change or not give them a choice. I think we're in "make people want to change" mode now with ideas like mixers and pleas to use the main fourms more. Those may work and they're worth trying. But if not, you're left with "not give them a choice," which can backfire but can also work wonders. Not having to choose can be a good thing too. I love it when my wife decides where we're going out to eat and I don't have to think about it or choose.
All just ideas here, and I don't claim to have the answers, but from the sounds of things, some drastic attempts need to be made, so trying to suggest what those changes might be.
You will be disolving what is keeping the people who are here "in hiding" here. Without that, many will find other smaller communities or form their own.
If people want something out in the open, it is posted in the general game forum, or in off topic. If it is meant for our clan peeps, we keep it in the private forums.
There is no need for opening everything up. 2o2p is a large gaming community with it's own subculture within the clan community. To stop fostering the clans, would cause pretty much an implosion of the subculture. And people would either lurk, or disappear.
BTW, Halo has sooooo many posts because we "comp" gamers, don't like changes to the game that are quirky or gimmicky, as such, that's where the banter comes from. AND most of us know each other enough to be able to talk a little smack and not get offended.
If push comes to shove Doodi, create paid priveledges for server maintenance and fees that allow people to keep on trucking in private forums. I know SEVERAL sites that offer perks for paid members, and am an annually contributing member to the one's who do. I'm not saying whore the site out, but if I have to pay 10 bucks a year to keep the family spirit of the clans I am in alive, so be it.