a possible idea might be to have Clan forums be read-only to everyone. or have the ability for a clan admin make threads in the forum, public or private. I think this would help with clan recruitment as well as now people can get a good look about what the clan is about before joining.
a possible idea might be to have Clan forums be read-only to everyone. or have the ability for a clan admin make threads in the forum, public or private. I think this would help with clan recruitment as well as now people can get a good look about what the clan is about before joining.
Why not let the Clans choose?? If like Fire, you clans are more loose association for gaming discussion...then you have the choice as a clan to open your forum to the public. If you are like 2old2pwn and tend to start trouble when exposed to alcohol or regular people...then you can choose to make your clan private. This lets everybody be happy doesn't it?
Those motivated to lean more towards site networking can throw the doors open and actively post, entertain and otherwise invite people to take a look see. Simultaneously there are some clans that are more private....where the talk is less gaming and more social?
Wouldn't that give us diversity and fullfill all sides of the argument?
Why not let the Clans choose?? If like Fire, you clans are more loose association for gaming discussion...then you have the choice as a clan to open your forum to the public. If you are like 2old2pwn and tend to start trouble when exposed to alcohol or regular people...then you can choose to make your clan private. This lets everybody be happy doesn't it?
Those motivated to lean more towards site networking can throw the doors open and actively post, entertain and otherwise invite people to take a look see. Simultaneously there are some clans that are more private....where the talk is less gaming and more social?
Wouldn't that give us diversity and fullfill all sides of the argument?
maybe, but i really doubt it. i think most of the clans choose privacy over public.
besides that, EVERYONE should make a little effort to contribute(not money or services, just socially) to the well being of the site. one of the main reasons for this is to hold on to new members when they arrive. there are people signing up for the site, here for 3 or 4 posts, and then gone because there was nothing to hold their intrest long enogh to start making friends here. go back through the new in town thread and see how many of the new members are staying active. if they aren't playing Forza, then chances are they aren't hanging around.
Why not let the Clans choose?? If like Fire, you clans are more loose association for gaming discussion...then you have the choice as a clan to open your forum to the public. If you are like 2old2pwn and tend to start trouble when exposed to alcohol or regular people...then you can choose to make your clan private. This lets everybody be happy doesn't it?
Those motivated to lean more towards site networking can throw the doors open and actively post, entertain and otherwise invite people to take a look see. Simultaneously there are some clans that are more private....where the talk is less gaming and more social?
Wouldn't that give us diversity and fullfill all sides of the argument?
maybe, but i really doubt it. i think most of the clans choose privacy over public.
besides that, EVERYONE should make a little effort to contribute(not money or services, just socially) to the well being of the site. one of the main reasons for this is to hold on to new members when they arrive. there are people signing up for the site, here for 3 or 4 posts, and then gone because there was nothing to hold their intrest long enogh to start making friends here. go back through the new in town thread and see how many of the new members are staying active. if they aren't playing Forza, then chances are they aren't hanging around.
Sort of makes my point though. Clans are made up of site members. If most clans choose to remain private...then that means most members want private clans...hence you are giving the site members what they want = happy members.
Or...maybe most will not go private. Either way...we will have a definitive representation.
Why not have a reward system for bringing new members in 20ld2play? For example, bring 1 member in get no ads on 2old2play for one week, etc. This could help the community grow and gives an incentive to be activley recruiting more people, Just a thought.
I feel like I should list credentials before I start talking. I'm a clan overlord, site moderator, site admin and former front page editor. I have put a lot of time into 2o2p. I'm an on-again/off-again SCC contributor (fuck you very much, paypal), and I've attended five (going on six) 2o2p LANs. 2o2p means something to me.
I started Profanity in Oct. of 2004 on Bungie.net and brought it over here after reading that article pimping 2o2p on Bungie and OXM. That was August of 2005. My clan will turn eight years old this October. My clan is important to me, and my clan's "home" is 2o2p.
What I mean by home is that, thought i brought over a clan with me, the bulk of my clan was added from the general population of 2o2p. Without the general forums, without site chat, my clan would look nothing like it does now. I would not have for brothers men like LBsutke, Taxi, Midnighter, BC, Bubba, Armada99, F1r3, Hoplite, Dixon, Trizev, Mr. White, Royal, Beldar, and even fucking Doodi (and a bunch more assholes I'm leaving off). We don't just game together. Hell, anymore, gaming is not the most important thing we do. Chat is.
Out of my original 20 or so guys, only four or five original clan members remain: Me, Speedbmp, Malice, Soup Nazzi and OKjerm. We have something like 56 members in Profanity currently, probably half of those are active (which again, points to a problem outside of the clans).
Why are those guys missing? Why did they leave?
Well, life, for one. People have gotten bigger jobs. Had kids. Gone back to school. Got laid off. Quit gaming...
Which leads to what I think is the bigger problem ... the games themselves.
Doodi had a good point when he talked about how 2o2p got started, and how clan forums began as a place to talk about strats in private. How there was only Halo, and now there's a million fucking games with multiplayer. But over the last seven years, clans have evolved into families, and family is more important than gaming. Family keeps you posting in a forum or talking in chat when there is not a game worth a shit out there to play.
And right now, I think there aren't a lot of games out there that flip whatever switch causes people to have a lot of passion and enthusiasm for them.
I don't post about Halo anymore because I don't have a comp team anymore, and I think Reach sucks dick (re: has a lot of fucking problems that make it less enjoyable for someone like me to play). Furthermore, I'm really not a "gamer" per se. I'm a Halo player, or if you're being generous, an FPS player. I don't give a damn about 95 percent of the other games out there, which means already I have little to contribute to the forums. I have few fucks to give.
How many of you out there are like me? Does that sound like my participation is because I'd rather post in my clan? I'd say it's because I have nothing to talk about related to gaming, and the posts in my clan are more general in nature. I'm not talking about gaming at all these days, I'm talking to my brothers.
Would taking away my clan forum help this? Not even remotely.
I think blaming clans for the lack of activity is short-sighted and overly simplistic. Clans aren't and cannot be the only reason the general population fourms are the equivalent of an old west ghost town.
But there is a good point that new 2o2p members are showing up and seeing nothing interesting, then turning right back around and leaving. And that IS all of our fault.
What clans have forgotten is exactly what I mentioned earlier: they only exist because of 2o2p.
Because of that, I think we all owe something back. I think everyone here, especially those of us in a clan who know what 2o2p gave to us, has a civic responsibility to contribute to the site's well being. I believe each individual has to find a way to give back, either in time, money or both.
Activity alone won't save 2o2p. If you're forcing us out into the open, and the needs we have developed over the last seven years are not being met, we'll fade away. We'll leave. We'll go elsewhere. Taking away our home will not solve the problem. You should not have to leave 2o2p to do anything related to your gaming family.
Will forum posts in gen pop help sustain 2o2p? Somewhat. Can we all do this? Yes.
Posts probably won't be enough. We need more.
We've been talking about this in clan chat all day. We have a number of solutions. How about mandatory Community Playdates to be hosted by each clan four or five times a year? How about more clans hosting open tourneys in their game of choice?
Tournaments were the lifeblood of 2o2p in the old days. We lived on those things. We thrived on the rivalries between teams and clans. We scoured the forums looking for the slightest bit of smack talking or strategy refinement. Many of the old guard, those are the grand memories we have of 2o2p, what make us nostalgic for the old days.
How about clans paying $10 a month to be able to have a clan forum? I mean, maybe part of the tension Doodi feels about 2o2p and its stagnation is that without new people coming in, we won't get good advertising rates and thus won't offset the cost of the server for the site itself. What if your clan paid $10 a month for it's forum, and these funds actually PAID for the server fees for the site, freeing up Doodi from having to worry about that, and allowing him to work on things that could actually make the site more attractive to older gamers?
What brought you here? What brought you to 2o2p? Just getting away from the crazy kids on XBL? Did you just want to be a part of a community composed of people like you? Clans do not take away from that experience. They add to it. They are important to 2o2p.
And they are vital to the life of the site.
2o2p is not a right. You do not just get to come here, do nothing and have it. You have a responsibility to keep it alive. Now that that's being threatened, what are you willing to do to preserve what is yours? Are you willing to do what it takes instead of just sitting here feeling outraged? This is your home. It's not a business where you can just come in, buy what you want, and leave.
This site is has been an oasis to many of us. We are not unique. There are millions of older gamers out there who need this place, even if they don't know it yet. Each and every one of us is an acolyte for 2o2p. It's not a religion, but it can make a difference in people's lives.
I remember when we banded together to raise money for Jolly's little girl. That had nothing to do with clans and everything to do with this place. I see sites like TheChive raising assloads of money for victims of the Colorado shooting and I think, "why in the holy hell don't we do things like that anymore?"
That's not 2o2p anymore. It should be. It could be.
Frankly, I'll do whatever I have to do to keep my clan forum. I think that the clan forums serve a vital function on 2o2p. I love my clan more than I love this site, but I owe this site the life of my clan. So maybe instead of thinking that killing our clan forums is the answer, maybe we as a community band together and do what it takes to make something more out of 2o2p. Show Doodi that we're not a liability, but in fact the most important thing on the site.
Frankly, I'll do whatever I have to do to keep my clan forum. I think that the clan forums serve a vital function on 2o2p. I love my clan more than I love this site, but I owe this site the life of my clan. So maybe instead of thinking that killing our clan forums is the answer, maybe we as a community band together and do what it takes to make something more out of 2o2p. Show Doodi that we're not a liability, but in fact the most important thing on the site.
excellent. i hope that some other can maybe understand when it's stated like this. there's no need to sit back and bitch, there's no reason to justify what you've done. it doesn't matter if there isn't anything of interest to you on the board.
it's a simple as get off your ass and participate or sit there in your own shit, bitch about it, and lick your wounds when it's all a memory.
the past is the past, the problem exists now. argue all you want, you're just wasting more time.
Frankly, I'll do whatever I have to do to keep my clan forum. I think that the clan forums serve a vital function on 2o2p. I love my clan more than I love this site, but I owe this site the life of my clan. So maybe instead of thinking that killing our clan forums is the answer, maybe we as a community band together and do what it takes to make something more out of 2o2p. Show Doodi that we're not a liability, but in fact the most important thing on the site.
I am very happy to see experienced Clan supporters make such bold statements.
It should lead to better things for 2old2play.
I hope doodirock can take all of this new input and figure out which set of solutions suits his vision best. There isn't just one solution.
How can we be mad at Clans when 2old2play is just a bigger Clan. It is exclusive just like the Clans, right? Not everyone is allowed in here. Last time I checked you had to be 25, have to be a gamer and accepted to join. As far as I know most Clans welcome new members if they meet certain requirements such as games, attitude, wants, etc...There is no difference between being a member of 2old2play and being a member of a Clan inside of 2old2play. Love the website, love the Clan idea. Not so happy with the new version but that doesn't mean this isn't a great place to be if you are an over 25 gamer with a good attitude.
Any thought to dedicated days to dedicated games, sitewide? Diablo 3 this day, BF3 this day, Halo this day, etc? You make it a sitewide effort and friends list will expand. Run into similar gamers online, refer them here, rinse and repeat.
Great post Drost! Bravo and I can not agree with you more about the Clans owing something to 2old2play for their success over the years. 2old2pwn would not be were it is today without 2old2play.
Excellent and well written post Drost. I think a lot of us members that have a "long time relationship" with our respective clans (families) recognize ourselves in your words.
I don't know how much volume is being posted in clan forums vs public forums. But what I can tell and it's very obvious.... the public forums are pretty much on life support. Last I checked only two forums, off topic and halo were over 100 posts since v3 launched, so that's been months. Even though our membership numbers are like 20,000 or something, I don't feel like the vast majority of those are actual active members anymore. And of the ones that are active, it seems like the majority of those people either aren't posters or mostly post in their clan forums.
I actually come here LESS now since v3 than I used to. Not because I love 2o2p any less, it's because there's really not that much going on here anymore. Sure the front page content has been beefed up but blog postings (including my own) are way down and so are the public forum posts. Even in the clan forums, posts are WAY down.
I don't know if private clan forums is the biggest problem here but when you have most the posts being made behind closed doors, it certainly doesn't give a good sense of overall community.
I guess I should partake here as I kinda kicked off the mayhem on Deeps blog...sorry dude. I can only speak as a member of one group and that is as most here know 2O4F, we can only function as group with our own forum and sub forums and that is due to the nature of the game that Forza is. Within the game there are Car clubs in 2O4F there are four Forza Car clubs, three American and one Euro. Within the game there are different skill sets, car painters, car tuners and car drivers, some members of course are skilled at all three. Within the forum we co-ordinate Race series, paint and tune requests and even race tuition. This accounts for the high post count as these things are discussed.
Four Forza car clubs is a lot of people, so as a group we are a fairly large community. As we all help each other out on the many tasks involved in running races and series, and rely on one another to support these activates, that creates bonds and friendships and indeed rivalries. We also post about the things in our life that effect our ability to race, if we can't make one we explain why, so we get to know each other quite well.
What this means is we don't leave the confines of our forum as everything that makes a community is there.
Is this a bad thing? well depends how you look at it. 2O2Play hosts the largest group of Forza racers probably anywhere, and that is a thing the site can be proud of.
Now within 2O4F there is a growing community of people also moving into PC Racing, the needs of PC racers are not met in 2O4F as that is an Xbox based game and there are differences in all kinds of ways. So 2O2Race is on the drawing board, this will bring more people to the site. But much the same it will probably become another fairly self contained community. It is in the nature of what we do.
So the question is, how do you force us out...I read the odd blog, I watch twitch, I'm pissed I cant travel 2000 miles to come to the Chicago bash,.but I get all the community I can handle among the the race guys. I spend a large part of my online time here on this site, and though most of you guys have never heard of me, I am very active within my group.
So there you are insight into why I and my community are not to be found outside our forum, we're not anti social, we're not elitist, we are a big group of people from allover the world coming together around a game, one game, one club, one world....Peace.
I guess I should partake here as I kinda kicked off the mayhem on Deeps blog...sorry dude. I can only speak as a member of one group and that is as most here know 2O4F, we can only function as group with our own forum and sub forums and that is due to the nature of the game that Forza is. Within the game there are Car clubs in 2O4F there are four Forza Car clubs, three American and one Euro. Within the game there are different skill sets, car painters, car tuners and car drivers, some members of course are skilled at all three. Within the forum we co-ordinate Race series, paint and tune requests and even race tuition. This accounts for the high post count as these things are discussed.
Four Forza car clubs is a lot of people, so as a group we are a fairly large community. As we all help each other out on the many tasks involved in running races and series, and rely on one another to support these activates, that creates bonds and friendships and indeed rivalries. We also post about the things in our life that effect our ability to race, if we can't make one we explain why, so we get to know each other quite well.
What this means is we don't leave the confines of our forum as everything that makes a community is there.
Is this a bad thing? well depends how you look at it. 2O2Play hosts the largest group of Forza racers probably anywhere, and that is a thing the site can be proud of.
Now within 2O4F there is a growing community of people also moving into PC Racing, the needs of PC racers are not met in 2O4F as that is an Xbox based game and there are differences in all kinds of ways. So 2O2Race is on the drawing board, this will bring more people to the site. But much the same it will probably become another fairly self contained community. It is in the nature of what we do.
So the question is, how do you force us out...I read the odd blog, I watch twitch, I'm pissed I cant travel 2000 miles to come to the Chicago bash,.but I get all the community I can handle among the the race guys. I spend a large part of my online time here on this site, and though most of you guys have never heard of me, I am very active within my group.
So there you are insight into why I and my community are not to be found outside our forum, we're not anti social, we're not elitist, we are a big group of people from allover the world coming together around a game, one game, one club, one world....Peace.
Great post as always, but here's the rub. If a new person comes to 2o2p and can't see the 2o4forza forum, then what should they assume? That somewhere hidden far away there is a secret clan of thousands of posts? More then likely they will take 10min to look around and realize the site is dead (even if its not). Obvoiusly I'm using your clan as an example, but the point still stands. If someone who might be interested in racing (or maybe just wants to learn more about it) stubles into the Forza division, they wont think of a thriving community.
This same idea is true of our halo or even other FPS clans. There is not way for anyone to mingle on 2o2p and I'm not talking about forcing either. Just the normal sort of browsing one would do on an open platform. See posts that might interest them and comment in. It's not like you wouldn't have full control over your own forum, but at least new people would stand a fighting change of making friends.
Again, the clan is not the problem. I wouldn't want to force anyone out of their clan and tell them they need to talk about FPS when they're into MMO. That's just stupid. However when you create an environment that promotes segregation then you have no chance of growing that group without MORE segregation. There is the problem.
Drost had a really great post full of some truly detailed feeling about clans on 2o2p. That is all well and good, but it doesn't speak to the inherent issue of our future. The question is, do you want 2o2p to be around in 2 years? What you do to make sure that happens? I don't mean as just a site either, cause the lights can stay on forever as far as I'm concerned. But what good does that do us with no people?
Now let me give you a new scenario.
New player joins 2o2p and sees all these groups. Looks into all of them and see's a ton of cool topics related to the game he likes etc. The group uses a private area (PMs, facebook, g+) to maybe to discuss anything personal that shouldnt be out in the open anyway.
Outside of losing the ability to making make dick jokes where is the harm? Let say the person starts some shit in their forum. They don't like his style and dont think he contributes. BAN. However at least he had a chance to see what 2o2p is about. At least he was able to talk with actual members.
Drost had a really great post full of some truly detailed feeling about clans on 2o2p. That is all well and good, but it doesn't speak to the inherent issue of our future. The question is, do you want 2o2p to be around in 2 years? What you do to make sure that happens? I don't mean as just a site either, cause the lights can stay on forever as far as I'm concerned. But what good does that do us with no people?
I am confused. It's probably my age. Hopefully someone can explain this to me.
If the site keeps the lights on and has a bunch of active clans, then how will there be no people?
As a side:
Looking at this topic, there is only one post from a site member not in a clan. That would be deep and he was in a clan when the week started. I decided to look at the two largest topics in Off Topic. The Unrelated topic has four clan less members posting. The Boobs topic has six clan less members posting.
What does this mean? I don't know. Could be clan members are posting more than non-clan members. Or, most people who post join clans. Possibly, non clan members are not posting very much.
Ok I just read every post so far (3 pages of posts..omg, I am tired)
So from the generalization of the different responses I am going to post in regards to my personal feelings (my answer in green) and then my MOD (my answer in red) reality...
Some responsers said:
Well if you wanted us to participate more in the general forums whey didn't you tell us..
Well consider yourself notified. Well consider yourself notified, just do not be a dick and try to not specifically attack individuals.
Well if it is a money thing just give us the link.
Here is the link (for now use the kickstarter event, until Doodi can get another option ready) You have 50 days and counting to come up with some cash. If you click on the "back this project button" on the kickstarter site you will be taken to a page where you can select a pre determined amount or you can put in a unique amount at the very top. So if you want to rally your clan troops and gather some cash you have some time to do it. Honestly I think it would be better if people would just to the LAN, but money is tight, I get it. Trust me when I say that last part, more then people may know.
Consider yourself notified
If I post in the main forums people yell at me.
I can only say the mods try to do the best that we can. Are we perfect, no. If you have a problem here please pm Me or any mod. We honestly do try to help.
The Don't be a dick rule/law/what ever you want to call it, was made specifically for that. But people, this is the god damn internet. Only so much can be done.
The site is totally broken prevent people from the ability to post.
This confused the hell out of me. Yes there were a billion bugs when V3 launched. Now there might be 100. Is this site designed as a mobile site NO, absolutely not, neither was V2. If you can only access this site on your smartphone or tablet you are going to have issues. Sorry, but until the money and time can be devoted to making a specific mobile site OR you are a web developer with skills in coding Drupal and can provide assistance with the creation of a mobile site or can help with the fixing of current bugs. Please be patient and unfortunately it sucks for now or PM Doodi with your individual skill set and let him know you can help.
If the site were totally broken how can people be posting in clan forums and not the regular forums. Again are clan forums the complete issue, NO. Are they a majority of the percentage of the issue in their current form, probably.
Should members be lead by an example?
Absolutely Absolutely
What are your suggestions to fix things:
Not my job to fix things, only to make sure things do not get out of hand. This may sound flipint, but as a Mod I can't make people want to contribute. You either do it or you don't.
Personally if people want clans, I think Doodi should fix the SCC and charge people to be in a clan. 5-10 dollars a month per clan member. That would easily fix any monitary concerns. I think the gaming realted things clans do privately should be done publically. Does this mean I think you can't have a clan night for only clan members..NO. But if you have a succesfull clan gaming formula it could only help to post about it in the public forums. Ala what Deep is doing right now. Do other people try to do this, absolutely, but we need the community on a hole to try and participate. Nothing is more depressing when someone puts out an effort to do something and the only people that show up is other clannies. If people do not like you particular formula their is nothing you can do about that. If they do not like it, they do not have to participate.
But people, this is the god damn internet. Only so much can be done.
Where's that clapping smiley when you need it!
Here is my idea from a conversation that Lala sparked in PPC.....
MY SUGGESTION:
Put up a "Clan Open House" sticky topic in the forum specific to that clan/clans preferred game and ask all the clan leaders to give a day, time, that they would like to hold a weekly open house.
Example: PPC, monday, 8:00, would be in the BF forum.
2old2shoot, tuesday, 7:00, would be in the call of duty forum - etc, etc, etc
I believe this would help to spread out the clan activity in to the main forums and get the new people to browse around a bit.
This would allow new people to see where they might fit in and allow clan leaders to see about new recruits.
Lb has confused the shit out of me. Could I just redirect the conversation to agreeing that Lb is a dick?
^====smiley
Nothing wrong with asking for more participation. Don't be surprised when the trolls come out if people don't return to their regularly scheduled program.
Keep in mind, I started a war that almost got me kicked off the site...for my Off Topic review of Salt n Vinegar pringles. If people can start crap about that, they start crap about anything.
I think it's unreasonable to expect a couple of hundred people to get along. While I like the 2old2play community as a whole...I have met plenty of assholes that I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. I understand that they have as much of a right to be here as I do...so I try to hangout with people I get along with. That doesn't mean I can't get along...I mean, I just brokered an agreement with Doodi involving an uncomfortably long hug...and given our rocky history thats pretty amazing. But sometimes the best, and most respectful situation is just to walk away.
As you said...its the internet.
But I will say, this has been a lively discussion and I have enjoyed it thoroughly. Except for XF1R3X...he is a dick.
The following "Idea" is only to do with the racing side of 2O2P. I really don't know what everyone can do with the shooting, talking, flying side ect but here goes,
So me and Knight are part of 2O4F. We play it alot and 99% of our post counts are from 2O4Forza only
As Knight say's we are now also starting to enjoy PC racing (rFactor, iRacing, RACE 07 etc) and as there is currently no dedicated area to PC racing here on 2O2P we started talking about setting up a new group 2O2Race.
From the start of our planning we have both been dedicated to have this new group open to anyone and listed on the main forum. We decided this after realising that not only do we want 2O2Race to be an awesome PC Racing group full of painters, Tuners, Events and players we also want it to promote 2O4Forza our closed away corner here on 2O2P without having 2O4Forza open to the public.
So my point?
Well if a new person comes on and wants a bit of racing action and they see 2O2Race in the main forum full of posts, tunes, help, players they will know we are alive and kicking and hopefully stick around, as a lot of 2O4Forza members are excited at the thought of 2O2Race been created it wont take long for this said new person to realise that we probably have the biggest Forza group on the net.
As such this new person should then
A.Post in 2O2Race (Public Forum) about PC racing + Forza
a possible idea might be to have Clan forums be read-only to everyone. or have the ability for a clan admin make threads in the forum, public or private. I think this would help with clan recruitment as well as now people can get a good look about what the clan is about before joining.
this
Why not let the Clans choose?? If like Fire, you clans are more loose association for gaming discussion...then you have the choice as a clan to open your forum to the public. If you are like 2old2pwn and tend to start trouble when exposed to alcohol or regular people...then you can choose to make your clan private. This lets everybody be happy doesn't it?
Those motivated to lean more towards site networking can throw the doors open and actively post, entertain and otherwise invite people to take a look see. Simultaneously there are some clans that are more private....where the talk is less gaming and more social?
Wouldn't that give us diversity and fullfill all sides of the argument?
maybe, but i really doubt it. i think most of the clans choose privacy over public.
besides that, EVERYONE should make a little effort to contribute(not money or services, just socially) to the well being of the site. one of the main reasons for this is to hold on to new members when they arrive. there are people signing up for the site, here for 3 or 4 posts, and then gone because there was nothing to hold their intrest long enogh to start making friends here. go back through the new in town thread and see how many of the new members are staying active. if they aren't playing Forza, then chances are they aren't hanging around.
Sort of makes my point though. Clans are made up of site members. If most clans choose to remain private...then that means most members want private clans...hence you are giving the site members what they want = happy members.
Or...maybe most will not go private. Either way...we will have a definitive representation.
Why not have a reward system for bringing new members in 20ld2play? For example, bring 1 member in get no ads on 2old2play for one week, etc. This could help the community grow and gives an incentive to be activley recruiting more people, Just a thought.
I feel like I should list credentials before I start talking. I'm a clan overlord, site moderator, site admin and former front page editor. I have put a lot of time into 2o2p. I'm an on-again/off-again SCC contributor (fuck you very much, paypal), and I've attended five (going on six) 2o2p LANs. 2o2p means something to me.
I started Profanity in Oct. of 2004 on Bungie.net and brought it over here after reading that article pimping 2o2p on Bungie and OXM. That was August of 2005. My clan will turn eight years old this October. My clan is important to me, and my clan's "home" is 2o2p.
What I mean by home is that, thought i brought over a clan with me, the bulk of my clan was added from the general population of 2o2p. Without the general forums, without site chat, my clan would look nothing like it does now. I would not have for brothers men like LBsutke, Taxi, Midnighter, BC, Bubba, Armada99, F1r3, Hoplite, Dixon, Trizev, Mr. White, Royal, Beldar, and even fucking Doodi (and a bunch more assholes I'm leaving off). We don't just game together. Hell, anymore, gaming is not the most important thing we do. Chat is.
Out of my original 20 or so guys, only four or five original clan members remain: Me, Speedbmp, Malice, Soup Nazzi and OKjerm. We have something like 56 members in Profanity currently, probably half of those are active (which again, points to a problem outside of the clans).
Why are those guys missing? Why did they leave?
Well, life, for one. People have gotten bigger jobs. Had kids. Gone back to school. Got laid off. Quit gaming...
Which leads to what I think is the bigger problem ... the games themselves.
Doodi had a good point when he talked about how 2o2p got started, and how clan forums began as a place to talk about strats in private. How there was only Halo, and now there's a million fucking games with multiplayer. But over the last seven years, clans have evolved into families, and family is more important than gaming. Family keeps you posting in a forum or talking in chat when there is not a game worth a shit out there to play.
And right now, I think there aren't a lot of games out there that flip whatever switch causes people to have a lot of passion and enthusiasm for them.
I don't post about Halo anymore because I don't have a comp team anymore, and I think Reach sucks dick (re: has a lot of fucking problems that make it less enjoyable for someone like me to play). Furthermore, I'm really not a "gamer" per se. I'm a Halo player, or if you're being generous, an FPS player. I don't give a damn about 95 percent of the other games out there, which means already I have little to contribute to the forums. I have few fucks to give.
How many of you out there are like me? Does that sound like my participation is because I'd rather post in my clan? I'd say it's because I have nothing to talk about related to gaming, and the posts in my clan are more general in nature. I'm not talking about gaming at all these days, I'm talking to my brothers.
Would taking away my clan forum help this? Not even remotely.
I think blaming clans for the lack of activity is short-sighted and overly simplistic. Clans aren't and cannot be the only reason the general population fourms are the equivalent of an old west ghost town.
But there is a good point that new 2o2p members are showing up and seeing nothing interesting, then turning right back around and leaving. And that IS all of our fault.
What clans have forgotten is exactly what I mentioned earlier: they only exist because of 2o2p.
Because of that, I think we all owe something back. I think everyone here, especially those of us in a clan who know what 2o2p gave to us, has a civic responsibility to contribute to the site's well being. I believe each individual has to find a way to give back, either in time, money or both.
Activity alone won't save 2o2p. If you're forcing us out into the open, and the needs we have developed over the last seven years are not being met, we'll fade away. We'll leave. We'll go elsewhere. Taking away our home will not solve the problem. You should not have to leave 2o2p to do anything related to your gaming family.
Will forum posts in gen pop help sustain 2o2p? Somewhat. Can we all do this? Yes.
Posts probably won't be enough. We need more.
We've been talking about this in clan chat all day. We have a number of solutions. How about mandatory Community Playdates to be hosted by each clan four or five times a year? How about more clans hosting open tourneys in their game of choice?
Tournaments were the lifeblood of 2o2p in the old days. We lived on those things. We thrived on the rivalries between teams and clans. We scoured the forums looking for the slightest bit of smack talking or strategy refinement. Many of the old guard, those are the grand memories we have of 2o2p, what make us nostalgic for the old days.
How about clans paying $10 a month to be able to have a clan forum? I mean, maybe part of the tension Doodi feels about 2o2p and its stagnation is that without new people coming in, we won't get good advertising rates and thus won't offset the cost of the server for the site itself. What if your clan paid $10 a month for it's forum, and these funds actually PAID for the server fees for the site, freeing up Doodi from having to worry about that, and allowing him to work on things that could actually make the site more attractive to older gamers?
What brought you here? What brought you to 2o2p? Just getting away from the crazy kids on XBL? Did you just want to be a part of a community composed of people like you? Clans do not take away from that experience. They add to it. They are important to 2o2p.
And they are vital to the life of the site.
2o2p is not a right. You do not just get to come here, do nothing and have it. You have a responsibility to keep it alive. Now that that's being threatened, what are you willing to do to preserve what is yours? Are you willing to do what it takes instead of just sitting here feeling outraged? This is your home. It's not a business where you can just come in, buy what you want, and leave.
This site is has been an oasis to many of us. We are not unique. There are millions of older gamers out there who need this place, even if they don't know it yet. Each and every one of us is an acolyte for 2o2p. It's not a religion, but it can make a difference in people's lives.
I remember when we banded together to raise money for Jolly's little girl. That had nothing to do with clans and everything to do with this place. I see sites like TheChive raising assloads of money for victims of the Colorado shooting and I think, "why in the holy hell don't we do things like that anymore?"
That's not 2o2p anymore. It should be. It could be.
Frankly, I'll do whatever I have to do to keep my clan forum. I think that the clan forums serve a vital function on 2o2p. I love my clan more than I love this site, but I owe this site the life of my clan. So maybe instead of thinking that killing our clan forums is the answer, maybe we as a community band together and do what it takes to make something more out of 2o2p. Show Doodi that we're not a liability, but in fact the most important thing on the site.
excellent. i hope that some other can maybe understand when it's stated like this. there's no need to sit back and bitch, there's no reason to justify what you've done. it doesn't matter if there isn't anything of interest to you on the board.
it's a simple as get off your ass and participate or sit there in your own shit, bitch about it, and lick your wounds when it's all a memory.
the past is the past, the problem exists now. argue all you want, you're just wasting more time.
It should lead to better things for 2old2play.
I hope doodirock can take all of this new input and figure out which set of solutions suits his vision best. There isn't just one solution.
Drost - Amen brother, amen!
http:///www.youtube.com/L0KI619
Help!
How can we be mad at Clans when 2old2play is just a bigger Clan. It is exclusive just like the Clans, right? Not everyone is allowed in here. Last time I checked you had to be 25, have to be a gamer and accepted to join. As far as I know most Clans welcome new members if they meet certain requirements such as games, attitude, wants, etc...There is no difference between being a member of 2old2play and being a member of a Clan inside of 2old2play. Love the website, love the Clan idea. Not so happy with the new version but that doesn't mean this isn't a great place to be if you are an over 25 gamer with a good attitude.
Drost...you can't hear it...
But I am John Hughes-style slow clapping at my desk right now.
amen!
Great post Drost!
Any thought to dedicated days to dedicated games, sitewide? Diablo 3 this day, BF3 this day, Halo this day, etc? You make it a sitewide effort and friends list will expand. Run into similar gamers online, refer them here, rinse and repeat.
Great post Drost! Bravo and I can not agree with you more about the Clans owing something to 2old2play for their success over the years. 2old2pwn would not be were it is today without 2old2play.
Excellent and well written post Drost. I think a lot of us members that have a "long time relationship" with our respective clans (families) recognize ourselves in your words.
Your post is spot on in all aspects.
I don't know how much volume is being posted in clan forums vs public forums. But what I can tell and it's very obvious.... the public forums are pretty much on life support. Last I checked only two forums, off topic and halo were over 100 posts since v3 launched, so that's been months. Even though our membership numbers are like 20,000 or something, I don't feel like the vast majority of those are actual active members anymore. And of the ones that are active, it seems like the majority of those people either aren't posters or mostly post in their clan forums.
I actually come here LESS now since v3 than I used to. Not because I love 2o2p any less, it's because there's really not that much going on here anymore. Sure the front page content has been beefed up but blog postings (including my own) are way down and so are the public forum posts. Even in the clan forums, posts are WAY down.
I don't know if private clan forums is the biggest problem here but when you have most the posts being made behind closed doors, it certainly doesn't give a good sense of overall community.
I guess I should partake here as I kinda kicked off the mayhem on Deeps blog...sorry dude. I can only speak as a member of one group and that is as most here know 2O4F, we can only function as group with our own forum and sub forums and that is due to the nature of the game that Forza is. Within the game there are Car clubs in 2O4F there are four Forza Car clubs, three American and one Euro. Within the game there are different skill sets, car painters, car tuners and car drivers, some members of course are skilled at all three. Within the forum we co-ordinate Race series, paint and tune requests and even race tuition. This accounts for the high post count as these things are discussed.
Four Forza car clubs is a lot of people, so as a group we are a fairly large community. As we all help each other out on the many tasks involved in running races and series, and rely on one another to support these activates, that creates bonds and friendships and indeed rivalries. We also post about the things in our life that effect our ability to race, if we can't make one we explain why, so we get to know each other quite well.
What this means is we don't leave the confines of our forum as everything that makes a community is there.
Is this a bad thing? well depends how you look at it. 2O2Play hosts the largest group of Forza racers probably anywhere, and that is a thing the site can be proud of.
Now within 2O4F there is a growing community of people also moving into PC Racing, the needs of PC racers are not met in 2O4F as that is an Xbox based game and there are differences in all kinds of ways. So 2O2Race is on the drawing board, this will bring more people to the site. But much the same it will probably become another fairly self contained community. It is in the nature of what we do.
So the question is, how do you force us out...I read the odd blog, I watch twitch, I'm pissed I cant travel 2000 miles to come to the Chicago bash,.but I get all the community I can handle among the the race guys. I spend a large part of my online time here on this site, and though most of you guys have never heard of me, I am very active within my group.
So there you are insight into why I and my community are not to be found outside our forum, we're not anti social, we're not elitist, we are a big group of people from allover the world coming together around a game, one game, one club, one world....Peace.
Great post as always, but here's the rub. If a new person comes to 2o2p and can't see the 2o4forza forum, then what should they assume? That somewhere hidden far away there is a secret clan of thousands of posts? More then likely they will take 10min to look around and realize the site is dead (even if its not). Obvoiusly I'm using your clan as an example, but the point still stands. If someone who might be interested in racing (or maybe just wants to learn more about it) stubles into the Forza division, they wont think of a thriving community.
This same idea is true of our halo or even other FPS clans. There is not way for anyone to mingle on 2o2p and I'm not talking about forcing either. Just the normal sort of browsing one would do on an open platform. See posts that might interest them and comment in. It's not like you wouldn't have full control over your own forum, but at least new people would stand a fighting change of making friends.
Again, the clan is not the problem. I wouldn't want to force anyone out of their clan and tell them they need to talk about FPS when they're into MMO. That's just stupid. However when you create an environment that promotes segregation then you have no chance of growing that group without MORE segregation. There is the problem.
Drost had a really great post full of some truly detailed feeling about clans on 2o2p. That is all well and good, but it doesn't speak to the inherent issue of our future. The question is, do you want 2o2p to be around in 2 years? What you do to make sure that happens? I don't mean as just a site either, cause the lights can stay on forever as far as I'm concerned. But what good does that do us with no people?
Now let me give you a new scenario.
New player joins 2o2p and sees all these groups. Looks into all of them and see's a ton of cool topics related to the game he likes etc. The group uses a private area (PMs, facebook, g+) to maybe to discuss anything personal that shouldnt be out in the open anyway.
Outside of losing the ability to making make dick jokes where is the harm? Let say the person starts some shit in their forum. They don't like his style and dont think he contributes. BAN. However at least he had a chance to see what 2o2p is about. At least he was able to talk with actual members.
I am confused. It's probably my age. Hopefully someone can explain this to me.
If the site keeps the lights on and has a bunch of active clans, then how will there be no people?
As a side:
Looking at this topic, there is only one post from a site member not in a clan. That would be deep and he was in a clan when the week started. I decided to look at the two largest topics in Off Topic. The Unrelated topic has four clan less members posting. The Boobs topic has six clan less members posting.
What does this mean? I don't know. Could be clan members are posting more than non-clan members. Or, most people who post join clans. Possibly, non clan members are not posting very much.
I think things need to be the way they were back when. Site should just be a Halo 2 clan forum.
Ok I just read every post so far (3 pages of posts..omg, I am tired)
So from the generalization of the different responses I am going to post in regards to my personal feelings (my answer in green) and then my MOD (my answer in red) reality...
Some responsers said:
Well if you wanted us to participate more in the general forums whey didn't you tell us..
Well consider yourself notified. Well consider yourself notified, just do not be a dick and try to not specifically attack individuals.
Well if it is a money thing just give us the link.
Here is the link (for now use the kickstarter event, until Doodi can get another option ready) You have 50 days and counting to come up with some cash. If you click on the "back this project button" on the kickstarter site you will be taken to a page where you can select a pre determined amount or you can put in a unique amount at the very top. So if you want to rally your clan troops and gather some cash you have some time to do it. Honestly I think it would be better if people would just to the LAN, but money is tight, I get it. Trust me when I say that last part, more then people may know.
Consider yourself notified
If I post in the main forums people yell at me.
I can only say the mods try to do the best that we can. Are we perfect, no. If you have a problem here please pm Me or any mod. We honestly do try to help.
The Don't be a dick rule/law/what ever you want to call it, was made specifically for that. But people, this is the god damn internet. Only so much can be done.
The site is totally broken prevent people from the ability to post.
This confused the hell out of me. Yes there were a billion bugs when V3 launched. Now there might be 100. Is this site designed as a mobile site NO, absolutely not, neither was V2. If you can only access this site on your smartphone or tablet you are going to have issues. Sorry, but until the money and time can be devoted to making a specific mobile site OR you are a web developer with skills in coding Drupal and can provide assistance with the creation of a mobile site or can help with the fixing of current bugs. Please be patient and unfortunately it sucks for now or PM Doodi with your individual skill set and let him know you can help.
If the site were totally broken how can people be posting in clan forums and not the regular forums. Again are clan forums the complete issue, NO. Are they a majority of the percentage of the issue in their current form, probably.
Should members be lead by an example?
Absolutely Absolutely
What are your suggestions to fix things:
Not my job to fix things, only to make sure things do not get out of hand. This may sound flipint, but as a Mod I can't make people want to contribute. You either do it or you don't.
Personally if people want clans, I think Doodi should fix the SCC and charge people to be in a clan. 5-10 dollars a month per clan member. That would easily fix any monitary concerns. I think the gaming realted things clans do privately should be done publically. Does this mean I think you can't have a clan night for only clan members..NO. But if you have a succesfull clan gaming formula it could only help to post about it in the public forums. Ala what Deep is doing right now. Do other people try to do this, absolutely, but we need the community on a hole to try and participate. Nothing is more depressing when someone puts out an effort to do something and the only people that show up is other clannies. If people do not like you particular formula their is nothing you can do about that. If they do not like it, they do not have to participate.
Where's that clapping smiley when you need it!
Here is my idea from a conversation that Lala sparked in PPC.....
MY SUGGESTION:
Put up a "Clan Open House" sticky topic in the forum specific to that clan/clans preferred game and ask all the clan leaders to give a day, time, that they would like to hold a weekly open house.
Example: PPC, monday, 8:00, would be in the BF forum.
2old2shoot, tuesday, 7:00, would be in the call of duty forum - etc, etc, etc
I believe this would help to spread out the clan activity in to the main forums and get the new people to browse around a bit.
This would allow new people to see where they might fit in and allow clan leaders to see about new recruits.
Just a thought. Hope it helps
Stellar post, Drost. Nothing short of inspirational.
Lb has confused the shit out of me. Could I just redirect the conversation to agreeing that Lb is a dick?
^====smiley
Nothing wrong with asking for more participation. Don't be surprised when the trolls come out if people don't return to their regularly scheduled program.
Keep in mind, I started a war that almost got me kicked off the site...for my Off Topic review of Salt n Vinegar pringles. If people can start crap about that, they start crap about anything.
I think it's unreasonable to expect a couple of hundred people to get along. While I like the 2old2play community as a whole...I have met plenty of assholes that I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. I understand that they have as much of a right to be here as I do...so I try to hangout with people I get along with. That doesn't mean I can't get along...I mean, I just brokered an agreement with Doodi involving an uncomfortably long hug...and given our rocky history thats pretty amazing. But sometimes the best, and most respectful situation is just to walk away.
As you said...its the internet.
But I will say, this has been a lively discussion and I have enjoyed it thoroughly. Except for XF1R3X...he is a dick.
Absolutely!
That's a statement I think everyone would agree with, even Bubba
The following "Idea" is only to do with the racing side of 2O2P. I really don't know what everyone can do with the shooting, talking, flying side ect but here goes,
So me and Knight are part of 2O4F. We play it alot and 99% of our post counts are from 2O4Forza only
As Knight say's we are now also starting to enjoy PC racing (rFactor, iRacing, RACE 07 etc) and as there is currently no dedicated area to PC racing here on 2O2P we started talking about setting up a new group 2O2Race.
From the start of our planning we have both been dedicated to have this new group open to anyone and listed on the main forum. We decided this after realising that not only do we want 2O2Race to be an awesome PC Racing group full of painters, Tuners, Events and players we also want it to promote 2O4Forza our closed away corner here on 2O2P without having 2O4Forza open to the public.
So my point?
Well if a new person comes on and wants a bit of racing action and they see 2O2Race in the main forum full of posts, tunes, help, players they will know we are alive and kicking and hopefully stick around, as a lot of 2O4Forza members are excited at the thought of 2O2Race been created it wont take long for this said new person to realise that we probably have the biggest Forza group on the net.
As such this new person should then
A.Post in 2O2Race (Public Forum) about PC racing + Forza
B.Still be apart of a "clan" and post in 2O4Forza
Well that's the plan anyway
Thanks for reading.