I get you Walla. I'm still an admin here and I still keep an eye on things. Work has been slow lately - new blood has been a little scarce and there's not much as there was to look after. I don't know about the money end of it - I'm not involved on that side of the site. But if those numbers are accurate, those are amazing contributions (and no, I'm not patronizing - it's fuckin awesome). But if at the end, genpop doesn't have any activity to draw and keep new members, all your contributions will ensure is that you have a private clan forum. We won't grow that way.
I get you Walla. I'm still an admin here and I still keep an eye on things. Work has been slow lately - new blood has been a little scarce and there's not much as there was to look after. I don't know about the money end of it - I'm not involved on that side of the site. But if those numbers are accurate, those are amazing contributions (and no, I'm not patronizing - it's fuckin awesome). But if at the end, genpop doesn't have any activity to draw and keep new members, all your contributions will ensure is that you have a private clan forum. We won't grow that way.
Is it possible though that the clans themselves are the draw? As Splat mentioned in her post, coming to site as someone unfamiliar with the gaming community things can be very intimidating. She looked over the offerings in the clans, and approached us about membership.
Essentially as ambassadors for 2old2play, we welcomed her, played some Halo with her, granted her membership, showed her around the site features, helped with posting questions, and generally gave her a place to grow more comfortable.
Once she learned the ropes she became more active in venturing out into the public forums and using some of the other site features.
Let's put the job of getting someone here on the side. Assuming you can drive traffic to the site, what does that new user experience? I think for most...I know this is a generalization here...but I think most of the people that are active and contribute to the site have the same story. They were either directly driven to the site by a clan they encountered while gaming, or they joined the site and shortly after joined a clan.
When people find a clan that they feel comfortable with, they then contribute back to the site.
So what changed? Was the height of the site's activity 06/07? How much do currently available games have to do with this? Do things like MW3 Elite or BF3 Premium affect traffic on the site? Will the release of Halo 4 create a spike in traffic? Are the long time members just bored with each other?
I just don't see how clans are at fault for diminished traffic on the public forums unless someone suggests it's due to the number of clans now on the site. I am sure that number has grown over the years but can that growth be shown to decrease public interaction??? Doodi is there a way to see that?
It has been a long, long time since I have posted and been active in the 2o2p community...I will be the first to admit that. I just wanted to add my .02 here. Community is absolutely what drew me in and kept me here for many, many years. I will acknowledge fully that my "public" activity dwindled once I found my niche with a couple clans and group of people. At that point, while I still lurked in the public forums, I for sure stuck to my clan area and posted there. Is that what the founders intended? Probably not, it's obvious that this was built to be a community for gamers and it is a good one at that.
The thing is, my niche/clan was fairly specific and catered to my "needs" as a gamer and person and I was very content with how it was. No, I was not trying to screw doodi & co. out of public traffic (aside from some typical Clanarchy shitstorms when someone forgot to lock the cells) and I really did try to support the site through some blogs and even donations. For me, it just lost its luster after a while and perhaps it is to your point here...that the clans let people segregate way too much and public activity became the exception which is pretty opposite to how it was at the start.
There is a happy medium here, I am positive of that but I would be lying if I said I liked the direction the whole clan thing is headed. I am a casual gamer still, and still pretty fucking terrible at gaming so I won't ever really fit in with the hard-core group and will always tend to migrate to those more like myself. I co-own and co-operate a sports site and I know all too well the challenge that there is to keep an active community. We have forums that are active but strive on a daily basis to make sure our front pages get the traffic as well because that is what keeps the lights on. It's a delicate balance, and we learned over time not to try and force anything on the guys and girls outside of what they really want.
So mark me down as a vote for clans helping.
I am sure you guys will figure this out, best of luck seriously. 2o2p introduced me to people that are some of my greatest friends in life not just online.
If someone can figure out a way to grow the site, I'm all for it. I think the reality is that it's not just the site at large. Almost without exception every clan leader and member I talk to, who has been with the site for a few years, say the same thing..... the clan forums are dead compared to "x" years ago. Once upon a time I could sit at work and check in 2-3 times an hour and still not keep up. Now I can go a week and barely miss anything. This seems to be the case in a lot of clans. So it's not just a clan vs. site issue. Times are tough all over.
I'm not sure how to resolve it. We have several members who simply don't game much anymore. Is that a national trend for the 30+ crowd? Maybe. We used to actively screen potential new clan members before admittance. Now, I accept pretty much anyone who asks, even if they turn out to be a dick like Bubba. Our clan is old enough and tight enough to deal with that now. Even when it's totally open though, we get almost zero response.
I hope that doesn't happen for Deep. I hope he gets a ton of good response but to be honest, it won't be from me. I just don't play Halo anymore.
If someone can figure out a way to grow the site, I'm all for it. I think the reality is that it's not just the site at large. Almost without exception every clan leader and member I talk to, who has been with the site for a few years, say the same thing..... the clan forums are dead compared to "x" years ago. Once upon a time I could sit at work and check in 2-3 times an hour and still not keep up. Now I can go a week and barely miss anything. This seems to be the case in a lot of clans. So it's not just a clan vs. site issue. Times are tough all over.
I'm not sure how to resolve it. We have several members who simply don't game much anymore. Is that a national trend for the 30+ crowd? Maybe. We used to actively screen potential new clan members before admittance. Now, I accept pretty much anyone who asks, even if they turn out to be a dick like Bubba. Our clan is old enough and tight enough to deal with that now. Even when it's totally open though, we get almost zero response.
I hope that doesn't happen for Deep. I hope he gets a ton of good response but to be honest, it won't be from me. I just don't play Halo anymore.
Great post.
You were able to convey everything my age addled brain could not put to words.
I guess I should clarify that I'm not saying anyone is a bad member. I am not saying everyone should be forced participate. I am confused at the resistance to simply say, "Sure we as a group can add to the public/ social conversation on 2o2p and make our groups prescence known publicly in the games that interest us" I mean it isn't really that hard and in the long run helps grow 2o2p so clans can grow and meet new people. That's why we all came to 2old2play to begin with "Meet other adult gamers. When people show up and the forums are dead they go other places. Seems like such a simple thing, to simply ask fellow members to contribute to the public conversation and add their thoughts on their game specific interests not just inside their clan forums. So maybe someone can explain to me why this is such a problem and a monumental request. Why clans couldn't simply start a conversation about a game in the public forum and/or add to existing conversations?
All the older members remember the clan rivalries and fun we had. Public forums were so busy and fun people talking about games and weapons and gametypes etc... and they still do that but in their corners. why not have a conversation with others who share the same gaming interest as you in the game's public forum?
Seems like such a simple thing, to simply ask fellow members to contribute to the public conversation and add their thoughts on their game specific interests not just inside their clan forums. So maybe someone can explain to me why this is such a problem and a monumental request. Why clans couldn't simply start a conversation about a game in the public forum and/or add to existing conversations?
The problem XF1R3X is that no one simply asked for more clan involvement in the main forums.
deeps blog: wrote:
Well, I have come to the opinion Clans create too much segregation on 2old2play. I no longer see the posting privacy inside a Clan forum as being an asset.
From this and the comments that followed I was given the impression that clans are bad for the site and the cause of fewer posts in the main forum.
I think there are easier ways to ask for clan involvement.
Though I know members from my clan do post in the Halo, BF3 and COD forums currently, I think you will see more postings when Blops 2 and Halo 4 are released.
I'm not sure how to resolve it. We have several members who simply don't game much anymore. Is that a national trend for the 30+ crowd? Maybe. We used to actively screen potential new clan members before admittance. Now, I accept pretty much anyone who asks, even if they turn out to be a dick like Bubba. Our clan is old enough and tight enough to deal with that now. Even when it's totally open though, we get almost zero response.
Demographics may in fact be a big part of the problem. Everyone who started their gaming journey with 2old2play in 2005 was at least 25 and are now at least 32. I recognize a lot of the names in this topic as being amongst those early members. It seems their interest in 2old2play is still an important factor in their lives. I wonder how many in this topic are much closer to 25 than 34? Any? It's an important thing to know when making decisions for the site.
Are many of the original members of Clans still running the show after 7 years? Is that a good or bad situation? When should a Clan be laid to rest and new ones rise out of the ashes? I am not sure where I am going with this but I think you can see it's something to consider.
I for one hope the clan don't go away. Been here a while myself and while I do try to post in the main forums, I rarely get into the conversation. I used to, just not in the past year or so. I have to say though, there is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I see some names in Deep's blog and here that in my opinion dissapeared into the wind. A lot of the OG's who came out to defend the idea of growth (which im all for, but not at the cost of deleting clans) rarely post in main forums as well and that's a fact.
Just a thought. When this happens to a business you need to do a little research instead of assuming while people aren't posting. Maybe a survey? We see them pop up online all over the place so people can continuously improve web sites.
Also, maybe A/B testing? Give new site members different experiences and measure their behavior and comments?
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
This is not a black/white issue, not even close.
You're missing a key component here (which is really the main issue). At a party, if you're in your closed group I can still walk over to you, maybe eve's drop on your conversation, and then if I feel like I have anything to add, chime in. Sure you could tell me to fuck off, but at least I have a chance to become your friend. This isn't possible on 2o2p.
No offense, but I see these analogies all the time and the difference here is the structure and/or model of things, not the clan itself. For some reason people think the clan is under attack, when the truth is that the model is. Read a couple post back where I explain how and where the downturn happened, its not certainly not the clans fault.
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
This is not a black/white issue, not even close.
You're missing a key component here (which is really the main issue). At a party, if you're in your closed group I can still walk over to you, maybe eve's drop on your conversation, and then if I feel like I have anything to add, chime in. Sure you could tell me to fuck off, but at least I have a chance to become your friend. This isn't possible on 2o2p.
No offense, but I see these analogies all the time and the difference here is the structure and/or model of things, not the clan itself. For some reason people think the clan is under attack, when the truth is that the model is. Read a couple post back where I explain how and where the downturn happened, its not certainly not the clans fault.
None taken :-)
So, this is an issue of keeping the community as a whole active and interactive more than clans/no clans?
I will just shut up then, I am clearly a little confused. My money says, you won't ever NOT have this issue though.
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
This is not a black/white issue, not even close.
You're missing a key component here (which is really the main issue). At a party, if you're in your closed group I can still walk over to you, maybe eve's drop on your conversation, and then if I feel like I have anything to add, chime in. Sure you could tell me to fuck off, but at least I have a chance to become your friend. This isn't possible on 2o2p.
No offense, but I see these analogies all the time and the difference here is the structure and/or model of things, not the clan itself. For some reason people think the clan is under attack, when the truth is that the model is. Read a couple post back where I explain how and where the downturn happened, its not certainly not the clans fault.
None taken :-)
So, this is an issue of keeping the community as a whole active and interactive more than clans/no clans?
I will just shut up then, I am clearly a little confused. My money says, you won't ever NOT have this issue though.
Right, at least that's my own perspective. Some people in the thread have ideas that clans ARE the problem, I just don't share this view. The way we built and structured the forums is what lead us to this place. What is broken is the format and how we converse with one another.
There are plenty of sites that have leagues, division, clans, and more but it's an open area. If a new person comes in that doesn't fit the ideal of that division then no one there will want to play with him/her. It's self moderated in that sense. This allows any new member at least a CHANCE at finding others to play with. And even if they don't play with those people maybe they have something to add to the converstation at hand.
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
This is not a black/white issue, not even close.
You're missing a key component here (which is really the main issue). At a party, if you're in your closed group I can still walk over to you, maybe eve's drop on your conversation, and then if I feel like I have anything to add, chime in. Sure you could tell me to fuck off, but at least I have a chance to become your friend. This isn't possible on 2o2p.
No offense, but I see these analogies all the time and the difference here is the structure and/or model of things, not the clan itself. For some reason people think the clan is under attack, when the truth is that the model is. Read a couple post back where I explain how and where the downturn happened, its not certainly not the clans fault.
Both of you have good points with this. I can see the need to address the closed nature of the clan. I don't think that a clan should be 100% wide open however. Like many have said, they like having a place where they can vent without worry about it being public. I've also been a member of several forums with a closed off "member's only" portion that still has good participation in the public areas. The key is having people drive the chatter in the public gaming forums.
And that's where I feel that more community based events with clans taking some ownership in these events can really benefit. The clans get their name out there to the public on a wide scale, and the public benefits from the clans coming out and participating. Whether it's a competitive clan offering events to help other players improve, or the clans that focus on more camraderie and good times over scores offering events where everyone just blows off steam, we all need to make an effort to get out there and play with a wider array of gamers at various times. We can keep our clan nights, but sometimes it would just be more beneficial to have all of us get out and play with the site in general - and that applies to all gamers here at 2o2p.
I'm going to get Flamed major for this one. I am curious how being a member of a certain group on 2o2p and an Admin, Mod, Writer etc... in anyway relates to the group or groups you belong to.
Example: I was the Community manager and in the clan Profanity. Profanity had nothing to do with my CM position. So me being the CM for 2o2p and a member of profanity are 2 different things. I was also in 3 other clans at the time, could they then claim me as a contribution to the site also?
I'm going to get Flamed major for this one. I am curious how being a member of a certain group on 2o2p and an Admin, Mod, Writer etc... in anyway relates to the group or groups you belong to.
Example: I was the Community manager and in the clan Profanity. Profanity had nothing to do with my CM position. So me being the CM for 2o2p and a member of profanity are 2 different things. I was also in 3 other clans at the time, could they then claim me as a contribution to the site also?
Be kind
I promised myself I would just ignore your comments but I will attempt to get through this nicely.
Here is what it means. You were (or are) in a handful of clans...so perhaps what they mean to you is different than what they mean to others.
For most of the 2old2pwn people that contribute to the site in some way, the clan is tight group of close friendships. They are contributing to the site only because it is where there clan resides. They are compelled that the high tide raises all boats. What is good for the site, is in turn good for all members, which means it is good for our clan and members. The root of that is the close friendships they hold to the clan.
If you do away with clans, you will see all of that go away. People will follow their friends to whatever landing place allows them to socialize with their friends.
Hence, those contributions can be attributed to 2old2pwn providing a safe, structured place to cultivate and encourage productive site members. I know this isn't how every clan works. It is however, how the successful ones work.
We talk about having an "active" place that will draw people. Well I'm here....I'm really happy with the people from 2old2play I socialize with...I am contributing back to the site to continue the cycle...and if I find myself wanting for friends I will absolutely seek out another clan or try to get to know some other people from the site.
I'm not sure why you want to keep singling me out. It's getting kind of old though.
I'm going to get Flamed major for this one. I am curious how being a member of a certain group on 2o2p and an Admin, Mod, Writer etc... in anyway relates to the group or groups you belong to.
is in reference to this
Blue_Stiehl wrote:
I don't know anything about posts in staff forums. I am not a staff member, moderator or adminstrator. I am just a site and clan member.
then nothing. I was just saying I don't have access to the staff forums.
The goal here is to get people involved and to make this place somewhere a new member wants to sign up for and participate in. It's the lifeblood of any place like this and really needs to be the priority. Ideas are welcome.
Walla I'm not singling you out ( well anymore simply because you seem to most reluctant to having clans post publicly) I was having this debate with a couple others and was simply asking How group affiliation in anyway affects ones role as an admin or a mod. The clans I am in are like family and while they give me a room here, 2old2play is the home for all site clans and their members. So for a group to say well we have mods and writers etc.. to me the 2 do not relate because we are all members of 2old2play. Wihtout 2old2play the clans and members would really not exist they way they do, and that is soemthing I am sure we can all agree on.
We may be members of clans also but what we do for 2old2play in terms of Admins mods and writers and SCC in no reflects the group you belong to, much like other groups do not have any Admins mods or writers on the 2old2play staff or SCC members. Other contributions you mentioned like Lans etc... those are in my opinion group contributions
My point is and always has been clans being more public and less private. Keep clans keep the forums but 2old2play is the home for all of us. We are all under the banner of 2old2play. So saying to grow the community of 2old2play is partly contigent upon clans and groups coming out of their private forums SOME and using the public forums is not in any way an attack on clans or saying i think they are bad or they should go away or kill the private forums. What is bad is when our public prescence lags so badly that rpivate forum aqctivity is 5x's that of public forum activity. the point I made before simply being people join, see no public activity and leave to other places. We all as members should be working to fix that and a smiple quick fix is by contributing to the conversation publivly to show we love our home at 2old2play. This will show potantial members that we are an active large community and also active as smaller groups inside of that.
We are all members of 2old2play who gave us a place for simllar 25+ gamers
2old2play gives those members and their groups a Home
our home publicly needs work and that starts with clan activity in public forums
So the million dollar question is how to resolve the issue. I am going to speak for my clan here. 2old2pwn is willing to be a part of the solution since we kinda got the convsation going in the first place. We WANT to be here. We certainly we could have been pigs (haha) and started our own site but this is our home and plan on staying. We have a vested interest so to speak.
So the million dollar question is how to resolve the issue. I am going to speak for my clan here. 2old2pwn is willing to be a part of the solution since we kinda got the convsation going in the first place. We WANT to be here. We certainly we could have been pigs (haha) and started our own site but this is our home and plan on staying. We have a vested interest so to speak.
Well I think that idea can only be answered by what clans are comfortable with. I don't think any solution is going to make a clan happy either way. The bond has been built and they are far to tight to break.
So the million dollar question is how to resolve the issue. I am going to speak for my clan here. 2old2pwn is willing to be a part of the solution since we kinda got the convsation going in the first place. We WANT to be here. We certainly we could have been pigs (haha) and started our own site but this is our home and plan on staying. We have a vested interest so to speak.
Well I think that idea can only be answered by what clans are comfortable with. I don't think any solution is going to make a clan happy either way. The bond has been built and they are far to tight to break.
If the only solution involves splitting clans or taking something away from clans then yes. It's not going to be an overnight fix obviously. There is no one fix. The site as a whole needs to be looked at and IMO the betterment will come from making changes to several areas not just involving clans.
I'll echo what Walla said in this regard... If private clan forums were done away with, I'd guess that 90% of our members would simply move to a Facebook group or some such landing spot. I know that removal isn't being proposed so don't take that to mean a threat is being issued. Hell, no one would notice if we left anyway. :)
That said, if it were to happen it would be a shame in some ways. I know several in OMM have been playing MW3 regularly with PWN guys for the past 6 months and it's been one of the highlights of my gaming time from the past couple of years. That's probably because their group and ours, while unique, do share many of the same sensibilities around gaming. I've sometimes wondered if a merge with another clan would breathe new life into the clan(s). The problem is, there's just too much history and identification with the clan "brand" to simply dissolve that away, relatively painlessly. Besides, if I needed to merge, why not just use the open forums? But alas, that's not done either so it becomes obvious that clan merging is probably not the answer.
I also know that even if I'm playing in rooms based on the site at large, if "my guys" jumped on and started up Pocket Bike Racer and sent me an invite, I'd be in PBR in a heartbeat. That's what Clan created for me. I don't have that same connection with anyone on the site that isn't in my clan. Not that I don't like some of the other folks, I've gamed with many of you in the past, have met a bunch IRL and enjoyed it immensely. It's just not the same.
I think a start would be to bring more game discussion into the main forums. If you have some hot off the press CoD/Halo/BF3 or any other gaming news, throw it the main forums instead of only posting it to your clannies. Get a site wide game discussion going instead of 5-10 smaller, private ones
I think a start would be to bring more game discussion into the main forums. If you have some hot off the press CoD/Halo/BF3 or any other gaming news, throw it the main forums instead of only posting it to your clannies. Get a site wide game discussion going instead of 5-10 smaller, private ones
Then, in my opinion, folks here need to lead by example. There's a whole lot of talk about adding to the conversation in the public forums, and not a lot of action by those people. Deep has and does a great job on the Halo side, but he's only one person, involved in one game. I'm not volunteering because I'm one that needs to be led, and I'll fully admit that.
If it's gaming topics outside of the forum that you want, then go for it. Start it up. Start some events. Start some discussions. Easier said than done, I know.
On the same token, when those discussions begin, we need to be mutually respectful of each other that everyone plays the game for a different reason, in a different way. If I want to post on there about a game I did well in, I don't want a flame war started because of the casual game type I was in to do it (I've seen this happen in recent times, flames start, people scurry back to their clan forums). In a lot of cases, when this very subject of being more active in the public forums came up in recent discussion at the end of V2, it becomes a big personality clash issue. I remember the thread(s), I have the t-shirt, we don't need to relive it, but we have to acknowledge that the root of some of that "hiding" in clan forums came from this situation. DBAA was formed. Not at all true for all, or even the majority, but just giving some insight from someone who is active in a clan forum, reads but doesn't respond much in the main forum.
I joined the site on my 25th birthday after already playing with 2o2p people (and SO impatiently waiting until my birthday, probably at freaking midnight) and wanting to join the clan of peeps I was already gaming with. That was almost 6 years ago. I have real friends in my clan, many of us have met up every year for the past few years at our own LANs and chance meetings while traveling, and I wouldn't change any of that for anything. I like our private area where we can be family- where other people in the mass public wouldn't get us, where I can be more than just a gamer.
The very threat of taking that away will make a lot of us squirm. I get it, Doodi. I do. You feel clans aren't contributing to the growth of the website. Then help us help the website. If it's finances, put a link up- send a mass email out- like Walla mentioned, may folks don't even KNOW that they can donate. It worked for your LAN endeavor- you raised over $5000 in what, 2-3 weeks??? If it's flourishing main forums you want, then we need some direction. What do we want? More events? More talk about upcoming games? General talk about custom games that we've created? Let's start there.
All this to say, if you want us to come out of our respective forums, please don't force us to. Simply asking may be a start. Possibly having some events (starting with Deep's idea), run some polls (we need those for forums again!), get the community involved. Unlocking the doors to our safe havens won't force us to change; involving us will. This applies to all games, not just Halo. There are some huge releases of new games upcoming. Start some discussions on them. Get the ball rolling, so to speak. So who is that up to? Everyone. I may not be a leader, but moreso a follower, but that's just how I am in most cases. I
I get you Walla. I'm still an admin here and I still keep an eye on things. Work has been slow lately - new blood has been a little scarce and there's not much as there was to look after. I don't know about the money end of it - I'm not involved on that side of the site. But if those numbers are accurate, those are amazing contributions (and no, I'm not patronizing - it's fuckin awesome). But if at the end, genpop doesn't have any activity to draw and keep new members, all your contributions will ensure is that you have a private clan forum. We won't grow that way.
Is it possible though that the clans themselves are the draw? As Splat mentioned in her post, coming to site as someone unfamiliar with the gaming community things can be very intimidating. She looked over the offerings in the clans, and approached us about membership.
Essentially as ambassadors for 2old2play, we welcomed her, played some Halo with her, granted her membership, showed her around the site features, helped with posting questions, and generally gave her a place to grow more comfortable.
Once she learned the ropes she became more active in venturing out into the public forums and using some of the other site features.
Let's put the job of getting someone here on the side. Assuming you can drive traffic to the site, what does that new user experience? I think for most...I know this is a generalization here...but I think most of the people that are active and contribute to the site have the same story. They were either directly driven to the site by a clan they encountered while gaming, or they joined the site and shortly after joined a clan.
When people find a clan that they feel comfortable with, they then contribute back to the site.
I was going to post but realized that I never saw this thread 'cause I'm hiding in my clan forum.
OMM still has a clan forum :)
So what changed? Was the height of the site's activity 06/07? How much do currently available games have to do with this? Do things like MW3 Elite or BF3 Premium affect traffic on the site? Will the release of Halo 4 create a spike in traffic? Are the long time members just bored with each other?
I just don't see how clans are at fault for diminished traffic on the public forums unless someone suggests it's due to the number of clans now on the site. I am sure that number has grown over the years but can that growth be shown to decrease public interaction??? Doodi is there a way to see that?
It has been a long, long time since I have posted and been active in the 2o2p community...I will be the first to admit that. I just wanted to add my .02 here. Community is absolutely what drew me in and kept me here for many, many years. I will acknowledge fully that my "public" activity dwindled once I found my niche with a couple clans and group of people. At that point, while I still lurked in the public forums, I for sure stuck to my clan area and posted there. Is that what the founders intended? Probably not, it's obvious that this was built to be a community for gamers and it is a good one at that.
The thing is, my niche/clan was fairly specific and catered to my "needs" as a gamer and person and I was very content with how it was. No, I was not trying to screw doodi & co. out of public traffic (aside from some typical Clanarchy shitstorms when someone forgot to lock the cells) and I really did try to support the site through some blogs and even donations. For me, it just lost its luster after a while and perhaps it is to your point here...that the clans let people segregate way too much and public activity became the exception which is pretty opposite to how it was at the start.
There is a happy medium here, I am positive of that but I would be lying if I said I liked the direction the whole clan thing is headed. I am a casual gamer still, and still pretty fucking terrible at gaming so I won't ever really fit in with the hard-core group and will always tend to migrate to those more like myself. I co-own and co-operate a sports site and I know all too well the challenge that there is to keep an active community. We have forums that are active but strive on a daily basis to make sure our front pages get the traffic as well because that is what keeps the lights on. It's a delicate balance, and we learned over time not to try and force anything on the guys and girls outside of what they really want.
So mark me down as a vote for clans helping.
I am sure you guys will figure this out, best of luck seriously. 2o2p introduced me to people that are some of my greatest friends in life not just online.
OK, seriously.
If someone can figure out a way to grow the site, I'm all for it. I think the reality is that it's not just the site at large. Almost without exception every clan leader and member I talk to, who has been with the site for a few years, say the same thing..... the clan forums are dead compared to "x" years ago. Once upon a time I could sit at work and check in 2-3 times an hour and still not keep up. Now I can go a week and barely miss anything. This seems to be the case in a lot of clans. So it's not just a clan vs. site issue. Times are tough all over.
I'm not sure how to resolve it. We have several members who simply don't game much anymore. Is that a national trend for the 30+ crowd? Maybe. We used to actively screen potential new clan members before admittance. Now, I accept pretty much anyone who asks, even if they turn out to be a dick like Bubba. Our clan is old enough and tight enough to deal with that now. Even when it's totally open though, we get almost zero response.
I hope that doesn't happen for Deep. I hope he gets a ton of good response but to be honest, it won't be from me. I just don't play Halo anymore.
Great post.
You were able to convey everything my age addled brain could not put to words.
The PDF of all the Video game Stats
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
I guess I should clarify that I'm not saying anyone is a bad member. I am not saying everyone should be forced participate. I am confused at the resistance to simply say, "Sure we as a group can add to the public/ social conversation on 2o2p and make our groups prescence known publicly in the games that interest us" I mean it isn't really that hard and in the long run helps grow 2o2p so clans can grow and meet new people. That's why we all came to 2old2play to begin with "Meet other adult gamers. When people show up and the forums are dead they go other places. Seems like such a simple thing, to simply ask fellow members to contribute to the public conversation and add their thoughts on their game specific interests not just inside their clan forums. So maybe someone can explain to me why this is such a problem and a monumental request. Why clans couldn't simply start a conversation about a game in the public forum and/or add to existing conversations?
All the older members remember the clan rivalries and fun we had. Public forums were so busy and fun people talking about games and weapons and gametypes etc... and they still do that but in their corners. why not have a conversation with others who share the same gaming interest as you in the game's public forum?
The problem XF1R3X is that no one simply asked for more clan involvement in the main forums.
From this and the comments that followed I was given the impression that clans are bad for the site and the cause of fewer posts in the main forum.
I think there are easier ways to ask for clan involvement.
Though I know members from my clan do post in the Halo, BF3 and COD forums currently, I think you will see more postings when Blops 2 and Halo 4 are released.
Are many of the original members of Clans still running the show after 7 years? Is that a good or bad situation? When should a Clan be laid to rest and new ones rise out of the ashes? I am not sure where I am going with this but I think you can see it's something to consider.
I for one hope the clan don't go away. Been here a while myself and while I do try to post in the main forums, I rarely get into the conversation. I used to, just not in the past year or so. I have to say though, there is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I see some names in Deep's blog and here that in my opinion dissapeared into the wind. A lot of the OG's who came out to defend the idea of growth (which im all for, but not at the cost of deleting clans) rarely post in main forums as well and that's a fact.
Just a thought. When this happens to a business you need to do a little research instead of assuming while people aren't posting. Maybe a survey? We see them pop up online all over the place so people can continuously improve web sites.
Also, maybe A/B testing? Give new site members different experiences and measure their behavior and comments?
I liken this to a party I guess. At every party you end up with people who end up in groups they feel comfortable with, and then people that mingle with everyone and a mix of the two.
I wouldn't ever ask people at a party I was having to stop going off into groups because it's going to make the other people that don't know that group uncomfortable. Instead, I would try and come up with something to do that would involve everyone. Even with that, some still will just stick to their groups.
This is not a black/white issue, not even close.
You're missing a key component here (which is really the main issue). At a party, if you're in your closed group I can still walk over to you, maybe eve's drop on your conversation, and then if I feel like I have anything to add, chime in. Sure you could tell me to fuck off, but at least I have a chance to become your friend. This isn't possible on 2o2p.
No offense, but I see these analogies all the time and the difference here is the structure and/or model of things, not the clan itself. For some reason people think the clan is under attack, when the truth is that the model is. Read a couple post back where I explain how and where the downturn happened, its not certainly not the clans fault.
None taken :-)
So, this is an issue of keeping the community as a whole active and interactive more than clans/no clans?
I will just shut up then, I am clearly a little confused. My money says, you won't ever NOT have this issue though.
Right, at least that's my own perspective. Some people in the thread have ideas that clans ARE the problem, I just don't share this view. The way we built and structured the forums is what lead us to this place. What is broken is the format and how we converse with one another.
There are plenty of sites that have leagues, division, clans, and more but it's an open area. If a new person comes in that doesn't fit the ideal of that division then no one there will want to play with him/her. It's self moderated in that sense. This allows any new member at least a CHANCE at finding others to play with. And even if they don't play with those people maybe they have something to add to the converstation at hand.
Both of you have good points with this. I can see the need to address the closed nature of the clan. I don't think that a clan should be 100% wide open however. Like many have said, they like having a place where they can vent without worry about it being public. I've also been a member of several forums with a closed off "member's only" portion that still has good participation in the public areas. The key is having people drive the chatter in the public gaming forums.
And that's where I feel that more community based events with clans taking some ownership in these events can really benefit. The clans get their name out there to the public on a wide scale, and the public benefits from the clans coming out and participating. Whether it's a competitive clan offering events to help other players improve, or the clans that focus on more camraderie and good times over scores offering events where everyone just blows off steam, we all need to make an effort to get out there and play with a wider array of gamers at various times. We can keep our clan nights, but sometimes it would just be more beneficial to have all of us get out and play with the site in general - and that applies to all gamers here at 2o2p.
I'm going to get Flamed major for this one. I am curious how being a member of a certain group on 2o2p and an Admin, Mod, Writer etc... in anyway relates to the group or groups you belong to.
Example: I was the Community manager and in the clan Profanity. Profanity had nothing to do with my CM position. So me being the CM for 2o2p and a member of profanity are 2 different things. I was also in 3 other clans at the time, could they then claim me as a contribution to the site also?
Be kind
I promised myself I would just ignore your comments but I will attempt to get through this nicely.
Here is what it means. You were (or are) in a handful of clans...so perhaps what they mean to you is different than what they mean to others.
For most of the 2old2pwn people that contribute to the site in some way, the clan is tight group of close friendships. They are contributing to the site only because it is where there clan resides. They are compelled that the high tide raises all boats. What is good for the site, is in turn good for all members, which means it is good for our clan and members. The root of that is the close friendships they hold to the clan.
If you do away with clans, you will see all of that go away. People will follow their friends to whatever landing place allows them to socialize with their friends.
Hence, those contributions can be attributed to 2old2pwn providing a safe, structured place to cultivate and encourage productive site members. I know this isn't how every clan works. It is however, how the successful ones work.
We talk about having an "active" place that will draw people. Well I'm here....I'm really happy with the people from 2old2play I socialize with...I am contributing back to the site to continue the cycle...and if I find myself wanting for friends I will absolutely seek out another clan or try to get to know some other people from the site.
I'm not sure why you want to keep singling me out. It's getting kind of old though.
If this
is in reference to this
then nothing. I was just saying I don't have access to the staff forums.
If not, I still say nothing.
The goal here is to get people involved and to make this place somewhere a new member wants to sign up for and participate in. It's the lifeblood of any place like this and really needs to be the priority. Ideas are welcome.
Walla I'm not singling you out ( well anymore simply because you seem to most reluctant to having clans post publicly) I was having this debate with a couple others and was simply asking How group affiliation in anyway affects ones role as an admin or a mod. The clans I am in are like family and while they give me a room here, 2old2play is the home for all site clans and their members. So for a group to say well we have mods and writers etc.. to me the 2 do not relate because we are all members of 2old2play. Wihtout 2old2play the clans and members would really not exist they way they do, and that is soemthing I am sure we can all agree on.
We may be members of clans also but what we do for 2old2play in terms of Admins mods and writers and SCC in no reflects the group you belong to, much like other groups do not have any Admins mods or writers on the 2old2play staff or SCC members. Other contributions you mentioned like Lans etc... those are in my opinion group contributions
My point is and always has been clans being more public and less private. Keep clans keep the forums but 2old2play is the home for all of us. We are all under the banner of 2old2play. So saying to grow the community of 2old2play is partly contigent upon clans and groups coming out of their private forums SOME and using the public forums is not in any way an attack on clans or saying i think they are bad or they should go away or kill the private forums. What is bad is when our public prescence lags so badly that rpivate forum aqctivity is 5x's that of public forum activity. the point I made before simply being people join, see no public activity and leave to other places. We all as members should be working to fix that and a smiple quick fix is by contributing to the conversation publivly to show we love our home at 2old2play. This will show potantial members that we are an active large community and also active as smaller groups inside of that.
We are all members of 2old2play who gave us a place for simllar 25+ gamers
2old2play gives those members and their groups a Home
our home publicly needs work and that starts with clan activity in public forums
So the million dollar question is how to resolve the issue. I am going to speak for my clan here. 2old2pwn is willing to be a part of the solution since we kinda got the convsation going in the first place. We WANT to be here. We certainly we could have been pigs (haha) and started our own site but this is our home and plan on staying. We have a vested interest so to speak.
Well I think that idea can only be answered by what clans are comfortable with. I don't think any solution is going to make a clan happy either way. The bond has been built and they are far to tight to break.
If the only solution involves splitting clans or taking something away from clans then yes. It's not going to be an overnight fix obviously. There is no one fix. The site as a whole needs to be looked at and IMO the betterment will come from making changes to several areas not just involving clans.
I'll echo what Walla said in this regard... If private clan forums were done away with, I'd guess that 90% of our members would simply move to a Facebook group or some such landing spot. I know that removal isn't being proposed so don't take that to mean a threat is being issued. Hell, no one would notice if we left anyway. :)
That said, if it were to happen it would be a shame in some ways. I know several in OMM have been playing MW3 regularly with PWN guys for the past 6 months and it's been one of the highlights of my gaming time from the past couple of years. That's probably because their group and ours, while unique, do share many of the same sensibilities around gaming. I've sometimes wondered if a merge with another clan would breathe new life into the clan(s). The problem is, there's just too much history and identification with the clan "brand" to simply dissolve that away, relatively painlessly. Besides, if I needed to merge, why not just use the open forums? But alas, that's not done either so it becomes obvious that clan merging is probably not the answer.
I also know that even if I'm playing in rooms based on the site at large, if "my guys" jumped on and started up Pocket Bike Racer and sent me an invite, I'd be in PBR in a heartbeat. That's what Clan created for me. I don't have that same connection with anyone on the site that isn't in my clan. Not that I don't like some of the other folks, I've gamed with many of you in the past, have met a bunch IRL and enjoyed it immensely. It's just not the same.
I think a start would be to bring more game discussion into the main forums. If you have some hot off the press CoD/Halo/BF3 or any other gaming news, throw it the main forums instead of only posting it to your clannies. Get a site wide game discussion going instead of 5-10 smaller, private ones
Then, in my opinion, folks here need to lead by example. There's a whole lot of talk about adding to the conversation in the public forums, and not a lot of action by those people. Deep has and does a great job on the Halo side, but he's only one person, involved in one game. I'm not volunteering because I'm one that needs to be led, and I'll fully admit that.
If it's gaming topics outside of the forum that you want, then go for it. Start it up. Start some events. Start some discussions. Easier said than done, I know.
On the same token, when those discussions begin, we need to be mutually respectful of each other that everyone plays the game for a different reason, in a different way. If I want to post on there about a game I did well in, I don't want a flame war started because of the casual game type I was in to do it (I've seen this happen in recent times, flames start, people scurry back to their clan forums). In a lot of cases, when this very subject of being more active in the public forums came up in recent discussion at the end of V2, it becomes a big personality clash issue. I remember the thread(s), I have the t-shirt, we don't need to relive it, but we have to acknowledge that the root of some of that "hiding" in clan forums came from this situation. DBAA was formed. Not at all true for all, or even the majority, but just giving some insight from someone who is active in a clan forum, reads but doesn't respond much in the main forum.
I joined the site on my 25th birthday after already playing with 2o2p people (and SO impatiently waiting until my birthday, probably at freaking midnight) and wanting to join the clan of peeps I was already gaming with. That was almost 6 years ago. I have real friends in my clan, many of us have met up every year for the past few years at our own LANs and chance meetings while traveling, and I wouldn't change any of that for anything. I like our private area where we can be family- where other people in the mass public wouldn't get us, where I can be more than just a gamer.
The very threat of taking that away will make a lot of us squirm. I get it, Doodi. I do. You feel clans aren't contributing to the growth of the website. Then help us help the website. If it's finances, put a link up- send a mass email out- like Walla mentioned, may folks don't even KNOW that they can donate. It worked for your LAN endeavor- you raised over $5000 in what, 2-3 weeks??? If it's flourishing main forums you want, then we need some direction. What do we want? More events? More talk about upcoming games? General talk about custom games that we've created? Let's start there.
All this to say, if you want us to come out of our respective forums, please don't force us to. Simply asking may be a start. Possibly having some events (starting with Deep's idea), run some polls (we need those for forums again!), get the community involved. Unlocking the doors to our safe havens won't force us to change; involving us will. This applies to all games, not just Halo. There are some huge releases of new games upcoming. Start some discussions on them. Get the ball rolling, so to speak. So who is that up to? Everyone. I may not be a leader, but moreso a follower, but that's just how I am in most cases. I
Lead by example.
BTW, I put a link to this thread in our clan forum so everyone who never ventures outside can have the opportunity to contribute to the discussion.
You should see some of those posts in a couple of weeks when they finally see the thread.