Yow. Josh Holmes Really Stepped In It

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#1 Sun, 03/31/2013 - 17:12
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Yow. Josh Holmes Really Stepped In It

At the GDC panel, he brought up this graphic: 

Some folks are upset about his use of the Spartan in the wheelchair like that, and then about the first two bullet points.  He's since come out and apologized for the use of the Spartan in the wheelchair.  I think it's obvious that he was trying to promote "accessibility", instead of making fun of anyone with a disability.

 

Of course, now you're getting mock images like this:

Or this: 

 

Here's the full presentation, in video: http://uk.gamespot.com/shows/gamespot-live/?event=halo-reborn-gdc-postmortem-20130329

 

Also, a more level-headed discussion of the postmortem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZateZiwBH4&feature=youtu.be

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 18:09
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Lol at the 3rd image.
Mon, 04/01/2013 - 07:28 (Reply to #2)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:
Lol at the 3rd image.
This. I laughed and laughed. 

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 12:18 (Reply to #3)
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I want to see the proof that this strategy (narrowing the skill gap) is working.  Because all the data I've seen says it's not.

Beyond that, almost everything he said (as long as I could stand watching) showed someone who is very green and naive and who does not know much about running a business.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 18:45
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I saw all of those images over on NeoGAF. Person innocently thinks, cool idea, then shows it off. Oops. There is a relevant topic on Waypoint, by a disabled person I think, that really led to the apology. I certainly wouldn't want the Internet scrutinizing all the presentations I've made over the years. A new kind of Hell.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 18:57 (Reply to #5)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

I saw all of those images over on NeoGAF. Person innocently thinks, cool idea, then shows it off. Oops. There is a relevant topic on Waypoint, by a disabled person I think, that really led to the apology. I certainly wouldn't want the Internet scrutinizing all the presentations I've made over the years. A new kind of Hell.

 

I see it more of a joke that fell flat, and as someone who has told a joke that has fallen flat before (no, really!), that sucks ass.  To me, what's worse is the "postmortem", talking about the flattening of the skill gap, and how everything we've been pointing out, for the most part, was intentional, and in the name of catering to folks that were never going to embrace it.

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 19:01 (Reply to #6)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

I saw all of those images over on NeoGAF. Person innocently thinks, cool idea, then shows it off. Oops. There is a relevant topic on Waypoint, by a disabled person I think, that really led to the apology. I certainly wouldn't want the Internet scrutinizing all the presentations I've made over the years. A new kind of Hell.

 

I see it more of a joke that fell flat, and as someone who has told a joke that has fallen flat before (no, really!), that sucks ass.  To me, what's worse is the "postmortem", talking about the flattening of the skill gap, and how everything we've been pointing out, for the most part, was intentional, and in the name of catering to folks that were never going to embrace it.

I didn't get the same things out of the postmortem that you did. Maybe if I listen to it again and imagine my dick is huge, I might have a different point of view. Worth a try? LOL

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 19:43 (Reply to #7)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

I saw all of those images over on NeoGAF. Person innocently thinks, cool idea, then shows it off. Oops. There is a relevant topic on Waypoint, by a disabled person I think, that really led to the apology. I certainly wouldn't want the Internet scrutinizing all the presentations I've made over the years. A new kind of Hell.

 

I see it more of a joke that fell flat, and as someone who has told a joke that has fallen flat before (no, really!), that sucks ass.  To me, what's worse is the "postmortem", talking about the flattening of the skill gap, and how everything we've been pointing out, for the most part, was intentional, and in the name of catering to folks that were never going to embrace it.

I didn't get the same things out of the postmortem that you did. Maybe if I listen to it again and imagine my dick is huge, I might have a different point of view. Worth a try? LOL

When you're done with that dick, lend it to me.  My wife might appreciate that.

 

....What in the hell are you talking about?

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 21:11 (Reply to #8)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

 

....What in the hell are you talking about?

I dunno. What are you talking about?

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 21:46 (Reply to #9)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

 

....What in the hell are you talking about?

I dunno. What are you talking about?

 

You first.  You started the big dick talk and got me all hungry.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 02:16 (Reply to #10)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

 

....What in the hell are you talking about?

I dunno. What are you talking about?

 

You first.  You started the big dick talk and got me all hungry.

 

ok..i obviously walked in on this conversation without knocking first.. my fault....hang something on the door knob next time guys.

 

.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 07:13
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As my first look into the Halo group, umm....You guys are a lot closer than we are over at Forza...except maybe Fitzy.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 10:30
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Mon, 04/01/2013 - 11:10 (Reply to #13)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

What? You like the picture?

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 11:11 (Reply to #14)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

What? You like the picture?

 

Yeah, also it seems to have been created in response to/after this SNAFU this past weekend.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 12:12
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Am I to assume you don't?  It does seem like something is on your mind.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 14:00 (Reply to #16)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Am I to assume you don't?  It does seem like something is on your mind.

I'm not up for a wordy exchange, if that is what you mean. Busy having fun Forging on Forge Island. Posting pictures as some kind of statement is often dumb. Stated opinion should accompany the photos to give context. I can assume what is behind the picture's creation but I do not know anything for a fact. There are many things mentioned but what is the context? For example, "Small maps". I could think somebody hates the small maps and thinks there are too many of them in Halo 4. "Jetpacks", I assume it's a given the community likes jetpacks and use them often. So if you drop a picture bomb, I am going to say "what" because I want to know the direction you want the discussion to go.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 14:15 (Reply to #17)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Am I to assume you don't?  It does seem like something is on your mind.

I'm not up for a wordy exchange, if that is what you mean. Busy having fun Forging on Forge Island. Posting pictures as some kind of statement is often dumb. Stated opinion should accompany the photos to give context. I can assume what is behind the picture's creation but I do not know anything for a fact. There are many things mentioned but what is the context? For example, "Small maps". I could think somebody hates the small maps and thinks there are too many of them in Halo 4. "Jetpacks", I assume it's a given the community likes jetpacks and use them often. So if you drop a picture bomb, I am going to say "what" because I want to know the direction you want the discussion to go.

 

I think it is pretty apparent that the unwashed flood of people is clamoring for changes to things, and 343 (the monitor) is ignoring it all.  'Tis an editorial cartoon.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 14:46 (Reply to #18)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Am I to assume you don't?  It does seem like something is on your mind.

I'm not up for a wordy exchange, if that is what you mean. Busy having fun Forging on Forge Island. Posting pictures as some kind of statement is often dumb. Stated opinion should accompany the photos to give context. I can assume what is behind the picture's creation but I do not know anything for a fact. There are many things mentioned but what is the context? For example, "Small maps". I could think somebody hates the small maps and thinks there are too many of them in Halo 4. "Jetpacks", I assume it's a given the community likes jetpacks and use them often. So if you drop a picture bomb, I am going to say "what" because I want to know the direction you want the discussion to go.

 

I think it is pretty apparent that the unwashed flood of people is clamoring for changes to things, and 343 (the monitor) is ignoring it all.  'Tis an editorial cartoon.

Or, the monitor is a bonafide genius and appropriately ignores the noise. As an editorial type caricature/cartoon it lacks specifics. Maybe what the author intends is that there is no perfect direction and only a stalwart approach by the creator is the best solution.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 16:44 (Reply to #19)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Am I to assume you don't?  It does seem like something is on your mind.

I'm not up for a wordy exchange, if that is what you mean. Busy having fun Forging on Forge Island. Posting pictures as some kind of statement is often dumb. Stated opinion should accompany the photos to give context. I can assume what is behind the picture's creation but I do not know anything for a fact. There are many things mentioned but what is the context? For example, "Small maps". I could think somebody hates the small maps and thinks there are too many of them in Halo 4. "Jetpacks", I assume it's a given the community likes jetpacks and use them often. So if you drop a picture bomb, I am going to say "what" because I want to know the direction you want the discussion to go.

 

I think it is pretty apparent that the unwashed flood of people is clamoring for changes to things, and 343 (the monitor) is ignoring it all.  'Tis an editorial cartoon.

Or, the monitor is a bonafide genius and appropriately ignores the noise. As an editorial type caricature/cartoon it lacks specifics. Maybe what the author intends is that there is no perfect direction and only a stalwart approach by the creator is the best solution.

 

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 16:52 (Reply to #20)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

laugh

 

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 17:11 (Reply to #21)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

laugh

 

 

If we had 60 frames per second, that might cut down on the pom pom blur you're experiencing.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 17:35 (Reply to #22)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

laugh

 

 

If we had 60 frames per second, that might cut down on the pom pom blur you're experiencing.

But then we would be playing COD.

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 18:00 (Reply to #23)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

laugh

 

 

If we had 60 frames per second, that might cut down on the pom pom blur you're experiencing.

But then we would be playing COD.

Not necessarily.

 

What did you think about  Mr. Holmes' presentation (terrible joke aside)?

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 18:20 (Reply to #24)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

One would take that interpretation, if they already upgraded their Spartan's armor to reinforce the wrists for super pom pom waving.

laugh

 

 

If we had 60 frames per second, that might cut down on the pom pom blur you're experiencing.

But then we would be playing COD.

Not necessarily.

 

What did you think about  Mr. Holmes' presentation (terrible joke aside)?

Too much rehash from previous presentations. I.E. Tough to build a studio and build a game and so on. Too much my Dad this, my Dad that. Not a very good presentation at all and I lost interest after awhile. The biggest problem has been how a few people in the Halo community tried to make something out of nothing. I then had to go back and check a few things while not wanting to look at the presentation ever again. Blah.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 17:54
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Thought about a new topic for these but it kinda fits since it was in the same presentation by Holmes.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78515/halo-4-dropped-stasis-gun-to-make-the-game-less

and some reactions by the folks over at HBO.

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1178107

RC Master wrote:
Of course things that are familiar are going to score the most highly, most easily, with the least tuning in an environment where first impressions matter so much. However, some things are really good and it takes a long time to realise that and get to grip with their nuances.

But throughout Halo 4 it seems that 343i have become far too obsessed with this - making everything obvious and easy and instantly gratifying.

Really, it's OK if your funky Promethean weapons aren't used by everyone all the time, or people don't 'get it' as quickly. For those that do discover them that is rewarding for their effort.

For Halo 5, every time they're thinking of shying away from something alien and sci-fi and different and weird, I want them to look at the Plasma Pistol and the Needler and think to themselves:

"These weapons were designed for the original game, over a decade ago, and are now essential parts of Halo for many people with a design that has barely changed in all that time. We didn't even dare change these two weapons for Halo 4. Can we, so many years later, with a brand new team, really not think of anything that is as equally different, as equally iconic, as equally as fun as these weapons?"

Because they're setting really low bars for themselves and their players by just going 'rifle, shotgun, sniper, rocket launcher' again.

Avateur wrote:
"One of the barriers to entry with Halo is that it is sci-fi," Holmes pointed out. "It's had a very steep learning curve that's turned off a lot of players."

While I'm sure that's true in some instances, really? The most popular game outside of Call of Duty in the FPS genre from 2001 and on had a very steep learning curve? Even outside of multiplayer? Holy cow. This isn't Barbie Horse Adventure. Well, I get a lot of H4's initial decisions now. Hand hold the daylights out of it, push all the buttons, and get those quick time events going, because we can't trust the players to figure things out or conquer challenges on their own.

I just played H4 multiplayer again the other day and a lot of good things have happened to it since I last played. I'm glad someone or a group of someones has figured out a new direction. The X's are utter trash and it's as if they aren't there, but my goodness at least multiplayer is improving.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:08 (Reply to #26)
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Hoplite wrote:

Thought about a new topic for these but it kinda fits since it was in the same presentation by Holmes.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78515/halo-4-dropped-stasis-gun-to-make-the-game-less

and some reactions by the folks over at HBO.

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1178107

RC Master wrote:
Of course things that are familiar are going to score the most highly, most easily, with the least tuning in an environment where first impressions matter so much. However, some things are really good and it takes a long time to realise that and get to grip with their nuances.

But throughout Halo 4 it seems that 343i have become far too obsessed with this - making everything obvious and easy and instantly gratifying.

Really, it's OK if your funky Promethean weapons aren't used by everyone all the time, or people don't 'get it' as quickly. For those that do discover them that is rewarding for their effort.

For Halo 5, every time they're thinking of shying away from something alien and sci-fi and different and weird, I want them to look at the Plasma Pistol and the Needler and think to themselves:

"These weapons were designed for the original game, over a decade ago, and are now essential parts of Halo for many people with a design that has barely changed in all that time. We didn't even dare change these two weapons for Halo 4. Can we, so many years later, with a brand new team, really not think of anything that is as equally different, as equally iconic, as equally as fun as these weapons?"

Because they're setting really low bars for themselves and their players by just going 'rifle, shotgun, sniper, rocket launcher' again.

Avateur wrote:
"One of the barriers to entry with Halo is that it is sci-fi," Holmes pointed out. "It's had a very steep learning curve that's turned off a lot of players."

While I'm sure that's true in some instances, really? The most popular game outside of Call of Duty in the FPS genre from 2001 and on had a very steep learning curve? Even outside of multiplayer? Holy cow. This isn't Barbie Horse Adventure. Well, I get a lot of H4's initial decisions now. Hand hold the daylights out of it, push all the buttons, and get those quick time events going, because we can't trust the players to figure things out or conquer challenges on their own.

I just played H4 multiplayer again the other day and a lot of good things have happened to it since I last played. I'm glad someone or a group of someones has figured out a new direction. The X's are utter trash and it's as if they aren't there, but my goodness at least multiplayer is improving.

For those who don't have a clue about these two individuals. RC MASTER/ULTIMATE RC is well known for his High Speed Halo videos for Campaign. Avateur is just another forum dweller like any of us. Both have been unreasonably negative since Halo 4 came out. Both have been warned about their unreasonably negative opinions by Louis Wu. Their reactions/opinions carry no more or less weight than any opinion of any of us around here. I'd take Dixon's opinion over theirs on any given day (once).

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:10 (Reply to #27)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Hoplite wrote:

Thought about a new topic for these but it kinda fits since it was in the same presentation by Holmes.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78515/halo-4-dropped-stasis-gun-to-make-the-game-less

and some reactions by the folks over at HBO.

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1178107

Hoplite wrote:
Of course things that are familiar are going to score the most highly, most easily, with the least tuning in an environment where first impressions matter so much. However, some things are really good and it takes a long time to realise that and get to grip with their nuances.

But throughout Halo 4 it seems that 343i have become far too obsessed with this - making everything obvious and easy and instantly gratifying.

Really, it's OK if your funky Promethean weapons aren't used by everyone all the time, or people don't 'get it' as quickly. For those that do discover them that is rewarding for their effort.

For Halo 5, every time they're thinking of shying away from something alien and sci-fi and different and weird, I want them to look at the Plasma Pistol and the Needler and think to themselves:

"These weapons were designed for the original game, over a decade ago, and are now essential parts of Halo for many people with a design that has barely changed in all that time. We didn't even dare change these two weapons for Halo 4. Can we, so many years later, with a brand new team, really not think of anything that is as equally different, as equally iconic, as equally as fun as these weapons?"

Because they're setting really low bars for themselves and their players by just going 'rifle, shotgun, sniper, rocket launcher' again.

Hoplite wrote:
"One of the barriers to entry with Halo is that it is sci-fi," Holmes pointed out. "It's had a very steep learning curve that's turned off a lot of players."

While I'm sure that's true in some instances, really? The most popular game outside of Call of Duty in the FPS genre from 2001 and on had a very steep learning curve? Even outside of multiplayer? Holy cow. This isn't Barbie Horse Adventure. Well, I get a lot of H4's initial decisions now. Hand hold the daylights out of it, push all the buttons, and get those quick time events going, because we can't trust the players to figure things out or conquer challenges on their own.

I just played H4 multiplayer again the other day and a lot of good things have happened to it since I last played. I'm glad someone or a group of someones has figured out a new direction. The X's are utter trash and it's as if they aren't there, but my goodness at least multiplayer is improving.

For those who don't have a clue about these two individuals. RC MASTER/ULTIMATE RC is well known for his High Speed Halo videos for Campaign. Avateur is just another forum dweller like any of us. Both have been unreasonably negative since Halo 4 came out. Both have been warned about their unreasonably negative opinions by Louis Wu. Their reactions/opinions carry no more or less weight than any opinion of any of us around here. I'd take Dixon's opinion over theirs on any given day (once).

 

How about now? (Check who is being quoted, if it isn't obvious.)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:20 (Reply to #28)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Hoplite wrote:

Thought about a new topic for these but it kinda fits since it was in the same presentation by Holmes.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78515/halo-4-dropped-stasis-gun-to-make-the-game-less

and some reactions by the folks over at HBO.

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1178107

Hoplite wrote:
Of course things that are familiar are going to score the most highly, most easily, with the least tuning in an environment where first impressions matter so much. However, some things are really good and it takes a long time to realise that and get to grip with their nuances.

But throughout Halo 4 it seems that 343i have become far too obsessed with this - making everything obvious and easy and instantly gratifying.

Really, it's OK if your funky Promethean weapons aren't used by everyone all the time, or people don't 'get it' as quickly. For those that do discover them that is rewarding for their effort.

For Halo 5, every time they're thinking of shying away from something alien and sci-fi and different and weird, I want them to look at the Plasma Pistol and the Needler and think to themselves:

"These weapons were designed for the original game, over a decade ago, and are now essential parts of Halo for many people with a design that has barely changed in all that time. We didn't even dare change these two weapons for Halo 4. Can we, so many years later, with a brand new team, really not think of anything that is as equally different, as equally iconic, as equally as fun as these weapons?"

Because they're setting really low bars for themselves and their players by just going 'rifle, shotgun, sniper, rocket launcher' again.

Hoplite wrote:
"One of the barriers to entry with Halo is that it is sci-fi," Holmes pointed out. "It's had a very steep learning curve that's turned off a lot of players."

While I'm sure that's true in some instances, really? The most popular game outside of Call of Duty in the FPS genre from 2001 and on had a very steep learning curve? Even outside of multiplayer? Holy cow. This isn't Barbie Horse Adventure. Well, I get a lot of H4's initial decisions now. Hand hold the daylights out of it, push all the buttons, and get those quick time events going, because we can't trust the players to figure things out or conquer challenges on their own.

I just played H4 multiplayer again the other day and a lot of good things have happened to it since I last played. I'm glad someone or a group of someones has figured out a new direction. The X's are utter trash and it's as if they aren't there, but my goodness at least multiplayer is improving.

For those who don't have a clue about these two individuals. RC MASTER/ULTIMATE RC is well known for his High Speed Halo videos for Campaign. Avateur is just another forum dweller like any of us. Both have been unreasonably negative since Halo 4 came out. Both have been warned about their unreasonably negative opinions by Louis Wu. Their reactions/opinions carry no more or less weight than any opinion of any of us around here. I'd take Dixon's opinion over theirs on any given day (once).

 

How about now? (Check who is being quoted, if it isn't obvious.)

Your quotes are all messed up.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:05
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In this case, they are not [i]unreasonably[/i] negative.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:44 (Reply to #30)
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Hoplite wrote:

In this case, they are not [i]unreasonably[/i] negative.

I'd rather debate or offer opinion on what you had to say than what those two guys said. Neither of those two have good opinions on much of anything any more. I read their shit on HBO enough, seeing it here again makes me puke. Tell me what you think in your own words about exactly what was in the video. Quote the video time too please. I admit to some serious hearing problems and miss some dialogue, at times. Thanks in advance, if you have time to do it.

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