Sprint is supposed to speed up gameplay - and it does in an instant-kill game like COD. In a game with longer kill-times like Halo, it doesn't. It allows people to get away (partly because of map design) and the upside of getting back into the fight faster is negated by the larger maps necessary for sprint. Then there's how map-size jives with the effective range of weapons.
Sprint also randomizes the game to the point that it de-structures the gameplay. Lose sight of a player for 3 seconds and he could be anywhere on the map. Add things like jetpacks and random ordinances and you have the 52 card pickup version of Halo. There's a balancing act of structure for a game to be enjoyable.
That's not to say that sprint will be removed in Halo 5 or that it even needs to be. It's an interesting mechanic but I just don't think it worked out well in Halo 4 or Reach. If it doesn't work, fix it or take it out. Just my opinion.
Sprint works for me and I like it. Many do like it. Bungie knew people would like it and 343i jumped on it too. They didn't just randomly include it.
Halo has always been a game about "getting away". That was part of the point of shielding. It created a feedback loop allowing disengagement followed by re-engagement. Take a hit, run away. Now you can run faster with Sprint but so can the pursuer who can also cancel your run with accurate shooting. Sprint doesn't randomize or de-structure so much as it just changes it from what came before by adding enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities.
Ordnance is another kettle of fish. I could care less how the weapons get on the map but I like the waypoints. The Global FFA Championship proved how interesting weapon waypoint markers can make a game for an audience. I know I was really into the whole, when are are the power weapons up and who will get it first.
Regardless if you like sprint or "many" do too, it doesn't make it good for Halo. I'm sure many love the Konami code too. Of course with that you can choose to use it or not. When sprint is built in and tied to a button, it makes everyone use it. Because everyone has access, it forces your hand. Your comparison to the shielding is invalid..... sprint + shield just doubles the fights that were already created originally in Halo CE to be a battle, not an escape (as a rule). Halo fights are already longer than any other FPS, and adding sprint just extends them even more and makes it a game of running away rather than fighting it out. I take issue with your opinion that halo has "always been a game of getting away" - maybe for you, but not for most people I've played with over the past 10-12 years.
"enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities" - aka dragging out encounters.
I do care how weapons get on the map. The timed spawns, and having to learn over time where and when things spawned were part of the core Halo gameplay and have been since the start. It's what makes Halo, Halo.
It's hand holding for people who don't play much or who can't take the time or effort to learn the game nuances.
Sprint is supposed to speed up gameplay - and it does in an instant-kill game like COD. In a game with longer kill-times like Halo, it doesn't. It allows people to get away (partly because of map design) and the upside of getting back into the fight faster is negated by the larger maps necessary for sprint. Then there's how map-size jives with the effective range of weapons.
Sprint also randomizes the game to the point that it de-structures the gameplay. Lose sight of a player for 3 seconds and he could be anywhere on the map. Add things like jetpacks and random ordinances and you have the 52 card pickup version of Halo. There's a balancing act of structure for a game to be enjoyable.
That's not to say that sprint will be removed in Halo 5 or that it even needs to be. It's an interesting mechanic but I just don't think it worked out well in Halo 4 or Reach. If it doesn't work, fix it or take it out. Just my opinion.
Sprint works for me and I like it. Many do like it. Bungie knew people would like it and 343i jumped on it too. They didn't just randomly include it.
Halo has always been a game about "getting away". That was part of the point of shielding. It created a feedback loop allowing disengagement followed by re-engagement. Take a hit, run away. Now you can run faster with Sprint but so can the pursuer who can also cancel your run with accurate shooting. Sprint doesn't randomize or de-structure so much as it just changes it from what came before by adding enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities.
Ordnance is another kettle of fish. I could care less how the weapons get on the map but I like the waypoints. The Global FFA Championship proved how interesting weapon waypoint markers can make a game for an audience. I know I was really into the whole, when are are the power weapons up and who will get it first.
Regardless if you like sprint or "many" do too, it doesn't make it good for Halo. I'm sure many love the Konami code too. Of course with that you can choose to use it or not. When sprint is built in and tied to a button, it makes everyone use it. Because everyone has access, it forces your hand. Your comparison to the shielding is invalid..... sprint + shield just doubles the fights that were already created originally in Halo CE to be a battle, not an escape (as a rule). Halo fights are already longer than any other FPS, and adding sprint just extends them even more and makes it a game of running away rather than fighting it out. I take issue with your opinion that halo has "always been a game of getting away" - maybe for you, but not for most people I've played with over the past 10-12 years.
"enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities" - aka dragging out encounters.
I do care how weapons get on the map. The timed spawns, and having to learn over time where and when things spawned were part of the core Halo gameplay and have been since the start. It's what makes Halo, Halo.
It's hand holding for people who don't play much or who can't take the time or effort to learn the game nuances.
We are just going to have to disagree on all of your points. We'll know whose opinion is closest to reality when the next Halo comes out. We can't fix what we've been given, it's been argued to death everywhere and a whole year will pass before the results come in.
Sprint works for me and I like it. Many do like it. Bungie knew people would like it and 343i jumped on it too. They didn't just randomly include it.
Halo has always been a game about "getting away". That was part of the point of shielding. It created a feedback loop allowing disengagement followed by re-engagement. Take a hit, run away. Now you can run faster with Sprint but so can the pursuer who can also cancel your run with accurate shooting. Sprint doesn't randomize or de-structure so much as it just changes it from what came before by adding enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities.
Ok what the hell..for the sake of conversation.
First, I'm not saying that sprint can't work. It does at times, but it's my opinion that it hurts more than it helps.
Overall, sprint + nade shortage (harder to control movement), map design (blocked sightlines, many escape routes, "bad loops"), longer kill times (5 shot weapons instead of 4 shot at launch), etc. seem to promote dis-engaging..
Let's talk engage/dis-engage. The same loop existed in previous Halo's, except there was more of an emphasis on decision making. You had to make a decision to dis-engage earlier. Due to cleaner map design, you couldn't run away as easily and also there were fewer directions to safely run in. To re-engage, you might have to approach from a bad position. There were risks and penalties for dis-engaging. Now, it's easier to dis-engage and the penalty for it is greatly reduced.
I think there's a balance in engage/dis-engage that keeps the average combat exchange "meaningful". If emphasis is too far on the dis-engage side and there's minimal threat of dying, then that takes away from the meaning and excitement of the exchange. If it's too far on the engage side, then player creativity and freedom is stifled.
That said, realistically sprint will be in Halo 5. Hopefully they figure out how to make it more enjoyable to the masses.
That said, realistically sprint will be in Halo 5.
See, we agree on something.
The other conversation would be pretty must wasted. The first thing that separates us is in-game success. My K/D is 0.74 and yours is ~1.5 and your CSR is 50 in Slayer with only 480 games in MM. I die twice as often. We are not going to share the same perspective or opinion on a lot of issues. For me, Halo 4 has always been about dying too fast and the weapon tuning made the situation even worse. REACH got weapon tuned to make it play faster and I didn't like that either.
The only thing important for us to converse about around here is how we can have fun playing at the same time. All the other stuff is not important anymore.
Wow. That's some heavy stuff, there. I wonder if 343 knew what they were getting into when they unleashed Sprint. It definitely doesn't get much love in this forum!
I like sprint. Just my opinion. I don't consider it a cheat. But it is true that it tends to drag out duels. But since I'm often one of the guys running away, I don't mind :)
Shadow, you are listing legitimate points that have turned off much of the Halo hardcore. So what would your ideal Halo sequel look like? With no sprint and ordinance drops, I reckon. What about armor abilities? Or Loadouts? Do you just want new maps, and that's it?
I don't mind loadouts. Maybe not Plasma pistol (that just makes vehicles useless). No sprint, no ordinance. AA's as pickups (like Overshield/Invis used to be) - that way you can fight for them.
Maps would organically change to smaller if there wasn't sprint. Obviously there would still need to be large maps for big team and vehicle based objective games.
we sure can. Enough complaining and Armor Lock was out of Halo 4.
Complaining and disagreeing 'in this forum' won't change anything. The best place to be heard is on Halowaypoint (though I don't recommend sticking around and discussing your points).
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
I'm sure they have heard the complaints but after that, it's a numbers issue.
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
I'm sure they have heard the complaints but after that, it's a numbers issue.
And the numbers are: their game is dead. MM is a ghost town. i know we disagree on what numbers are important (i love you Deep, but people being in forge or playing campaign doesn't count in my book lol). When MM is dead, your game is dead. I do NOT believe the reason is 'people are tired of Halo' or 'GTA V just came out.' MM has been dead for a while. i die a LOT in games. i'll go -20 in CTF just to prove a point to Medic. i HATE universal sprint. Nothing irritates me more than having a guy one shot, then he disappears, because he has sprint AND there's a bunch of shit for him to hide behind as he sprints away.
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
I'm sure they have heard the complaints but after that, it's a numbers issue.
And the numbers are: their game is dead. MM is a ghost town. i know we disagree on what numbers are important (i love you Deep, but people being in forge or playing campaign doesn't count in my book lol). When MM is dead, your game is dead. I do NOT believe the reason is 'people are tired of Halo' or 'GTA V just came out.' MM has been dead for a while. i die a LOT in games. i'll go -20 in CTF just to prove a point to Medic. i HATE universal sprint. Nothing irritates me more than having a guy one shot, then he disappears, because he has sprint AND there's a bunch of shit for him to hide behind as he sprints away.
As long as people show up to play customs, the numbers in MM don't matter to me. As long as a new Halo comes out, I'll be happy to receive it. Discussion (arguing) the merits or lack there of, of Sprint, serves nothing anymore (in this forum). All it does is get people riled up over nothing. People can always hide using a variety of methods. Are the solutions no movement and nothing to hide behind? I read before how sick people were of walking at one speed in molasses of previous titles. I read everyday how some maps are far too open and/or too big. Are the problem's answers the same for everyone? I agree that a map shouldn't be too cluttered. Who defines that? Movement should never enable a player with a better connection. What is too fast? Time till death should never enable the person with a faster connection but it does. Why is that allowed? Everytime someone ducks/runs behind anything for any reason, I'm annoyed too but that's a gun game for you. I'm not going to try to convince you Sprint is good or that you should like it. The developers eventually figure out who likes what or people will stop buying the game. People not playing the game en masse for years may not be that big a problem for them.
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
I'm sure they have heard the complaints but after that, it's a numbers issue.
And the numbers are: their game is dead. MM is a ghost town. i know we disagree on what numbers are important (i love you Deep, but people being in forge or playing campaign doesn't count in my book lol). When MM is dead, your game is dead. I do NOT believe the reason is 'people are tired of Halo' or 'GTA V just came out.' MM has been dead for a while. i die a LOT in games. i'll go -20 in CTF just to prove a point to Medic. i HATE universal sprint. Nothing irritates me more than having a guy one shot, then he disappears, because he has sprint AND there's a bunch of shit for him to hide behind as he sprints away.
As long as people show up to play customs, the numbers in MM don't matter to me. As long as a new Halo comes out, I'll be happy to receive it. Discussion (arguing) the merits or lack there of, of Sprint, serves nothing anymore (in this forum). All it does is get people riled up over nothing. People can always hide using a variety of methods. Are the solutions no movement and nothing to hide behind? I read before how sick people were of walking at one speed in molasses of previous titles. I read everyday how some maps are far too open and/or too big. Are the problem's answers the same for everyone? I agree that a map shouldn't be too cluttered. Who defines that? Movement should never enable a player with a better connection. What is too fast? Time till death should never enable the person with a faster connection but it does. Why is that allowed? Everytime someone ducks/runs behind anything for any reason, I'm annoyed too but that's a gun game for you. I'm not going to try to convince you Sprint is good or that you should like it. The developers eventually figure out who likes what or people will stop buying the game. People not playing the game en masse for years may not be that big a problem for them.
Which leads us back to riding the franchise into the ground because it tries to be what it isn't, as far as matchmaking goes.
...People not playing the game en masse for years may not be that big a problem for them.
No, it's not a problem. After they get millions of us to buy the game during the launch window, there is honestly no incentive to keep us happy. The only reason to keep us playing is to keep us around to buy DLC.
However, there are only so many times you can expect people to keep buying a game with a dwindling MM population. MM is what keeps the game current and on the minds of gamers.
DEEP, what you may not realize is that while you seem like you cannot be bothered by the MM population decline - it will eventually effect your custom games world. As fewer and fewer people play Halo, then what incentive does 343 have to update Forge or add back features we enjoyed from previous games? If people are abandoning the Halo ship, then what incentive does Microsoft and/or 343 have to dig deep and push for more features? Why add features for a game that is on the decline?
Also, I don't think anybody here is under any delusions of graduer that our opinions on the forum (or any forum for that matter) could have any sort of impact on the future of a game. However, it's obvious we still care about the franchise enough to want the game to be "successful". The declining MM population, not even one year after launch, is just depressing. I would say this alone is what 343 will really notice and perhaps start to rethink why people are leaving.
Should we really go back to a more authentic H2/H3 game? I don't know, but we can't really state how well a H2/H3 style game would do in today's market with so much more competition than when these two games were in their prime. Especially with games like Titanfall and Destiny on the horizon.
No, it's not a problem. After they get millions of us to buy the game during the launch window, there is honestly no incentive to keep us happy. The only reason to keep us playing is to keep us around to buy DLC.
However, there are only so many times you can expect people to keep buying a game with a dwindling MM population. MM is what keeps the game current and on the minds of gamers.
Most games are all about initial sales. Halo 4 did wonderfully in that area. I'd keep buying it just for the campaign. Of course I agree, we've had much more than that so far so I still want it all. Is it realistic to expect our favorite game Halo be on the top of continuous multiplayer forever? The attention span of today's youth is incredibly short when it comes to games.
DarthTabasco wrote:
DEEP, what you may not realize is that while you seem like you cannot be bothered by the MM population decline - it will eventually effect your custom games world. As fewer and fewer people play Halo, then what incentive does 343 have to update Forge or add back features we enjoyed from previous games? If people are abandoning the Halo ship, then what incentive does Microsoft and/or 343 have to dig deep and push for more features? Why add features for a game that is on the decline?
I am concerned and depressed about the current state of MM too. It's so bad in MM that all I really care about now, is having friends to play with at weekly events. A lot of people I play with adventure into MM regularly and I never here them complain. Why is that so?
DarthTabasco wrote:
Also, I don't think anybody here is under any delusions of graduer that our opinions on the forum (or any forum for that matter) could have any sort of impact on the future of a game. However, it's obvious we still care about the franchise enough to want the game to be "successful". The declining MM population, not even one year after launch, is just depressing. I would say this alone is what 343 will really notice and perhaps start to rethink why people are leaving.
They probably have taken serious notice and probably haven't been under any doubts the MM pop was under performing after two months. Maybe they don't have a magic bullet. What if the problems are demographics and sociological conditions? The youth today are flooding social sites continuously and that takes away from available gaming minutes.
DarthTabasco wrote:
Should we really go back to a more authentic H2/H3 game? I don't know, but we can't really state how well a H2/H3 style game would do in today's market with so much more competition than when these two games were in their prime. Especially with games like Titanfall and Destiny on the horizon.
I don't believe a retro and reduced feature set Halo title has a snowball's chance in hell in todays market.
They probably have taken serious notice and probably haven't been under any doubts the MM pop was under performing after two months. Maybe they don't have a magic bullet. What if the problems are demographics and sociological conditions? The youth today are flooding social sites continuously and that takes away from available gaming minutes.
....
I don't believe a retro and reduced feature set Halo title has a snowball's chance in hell in todays market.
COD4 came out in 2007 and has been very successful. I think they actually removed and tweaked new features that didn't work out so great. Imo they've done a good job evolving their game.
Overall I like the way Halo plays at this point, even if I disagree with a few things. My dislike of sprint is mainly due to its sometimes unnecessary effects on the maps. I think 343 does have a long way to go in making good maps, especially if they're to work well with their current game mechanics.
As far as the engage/disengage thing - compare your KD across H2, H3, H4, doubt it'll differ much. While sprint helps you stay alive, it also applies to your opponents and the playing field is level. In the end, same thing, just takes longer. Now if you prefer that then I can understand, but I do think sprint was intended to speed up gameplay.
...I do think sprint was intended to speed up gameplay.
I believe this was 343s thinking in having universal Sprint. However, as we've discussed it serves to slow down gameplay almost seemingly as much as it speeds it up.
I think the idea is it gets people to the action quicker. Much like instant respawns were intended to speed-up the game (I know another can of worms, for a different time...lol).
I have to wonder, if after they crunch all of the Halo 4 data, what the kill times will be like for H4 compared to the non-Sprint games.
I would hazard a non-educated guess, kill times haven't really changed. The larger maps to account for Sprint, seem to basically make engagement and kill times feel about the same to me. So I have to say, "what's the point?", other than to make the game seem faster or to give it more of a COD feel.
Anyway, I would be shocked to see Sprint removed from the next Halo game.
I just don't think it should be universal. Someone having sprint and jet pack (yeah Mike I'm lookin at you lol) is ridiculous. I think it should be an option like jet pack, invis, etc.
I just don't think it should be universal. Someone having sprint and jet pack (yeah Mike I'm lookin at you lol) is ridiculous. I think it should be an option like jet pack, invis, etc.
I'm fairly sure 343i made it universal because of its heavy use by the population. It was a choice by the players that was behind the decisions. If it went back to an either/or situation again, the outcome would likely be the same.
I just don't think it should be universal. Someone having sprint and jet pack (yeah Mike I'm lookin at you lol) is ridiculous. I think it should be an option like jet pack, invis, etc.
I'm fairly sure 343i made it universal because of its heavy use by the population. It was a choice by the players that was behind the decisions. If it went back to an either/or situation again, the outcome would likely be the same.
i disagree. Our of my friends, there were only a few who used sprint exclusively in Reach. Some people preferred jet pack, hologram, etc. Most of us had different choices for different maps. Jet pack on caged, hologram on ivory tower...you get the idea. I think only hardcore MLGers would pick sprint every time.
I just don't think it should be universal. Someone having sprint and jet pack (yeah Mike I'm lookin at you lol) is ridiculous. I think it should be an option like jet pack, invis, etc.
I'm fairly sure 343i made it universal because of its heavy use by the population. It was a choice by the players that was behind the decisions. If it went back to an either/or situation again, the outcome would likely be the same.
i disagree. Our of my friends, there were only a few who used sprint exclusively in Reach. Some people preferred jet pack, hologram, etc. Most of us had different choices for different maps. Jet pack on caged, hologram on ivory tower...you get the idea. I think only hardcore MLGers would pick sprint every time.
I'll try and find a link to comments on the matter by 343i. That's what I am going by and if my memory serves and a little luck I'll get that link. My own anecdotal experience was that it was heavily used but at one time it was Armour Lock so maybe each AA got heavily at different times. :)
...I'll try and find a link to comments on the matter by 343i. That's what I am going by and if my memory serves and a little luck I'll get that link. My own anecdotal experience was that it was heavily used but at one time it was Armour Lock so maybe each AA got heavily at different times. :)
DEEP, you are 100% correct. One of 343's talking heads, I think Frankie, did state that Sprint was added to H4 as a universal ability because of it's overwhelming popularity in Reach.
I would say this fact is reflected in the games I played in Reach. The only two AAs I used in Reach were Sprint and Hologram. Jetpack wasn't convenient because I play on Bumper Jumper. I would also say, most of my friends used Sprint with a Jetpack or two mixed in at times.
...I'll try and find a link to comments on the matter by 343i. That's what I am going by and if my memory serves and a little luck I'll get that link. My own anecdotal experience was that it was heavily used but at one time it was Armour Lock so maybe each AA got heavily at different times. :)
DEEP, you are 100% correct. One of 343's talking heads, I think Frankie, did state that Sprint was added to H4 as a universal ability because of it's overwhelming popularity in Reach.
I would say this fact is reflected in the games I played in Reach. The only two AAs I used in Reach were Sprint and Hologram. Jetpack wasn't convenient because I play on Bumper Jumper. I would also say, most of my friends used Sprint with a Jetpack or two mixed in at times.
Thanks. Since you remember what I remember and unless someone insists, I'm not going to dig for a link.
I have to prep the house and such for my Wife's birthday and I shouldn't be spending so much time on here.
...I'll try and find a link to comments on the matter by 343i. That's what I am going by and if my memory serves and a little luck I'll get that link. My own anecdotal experience was that it was heavily used but at one time it was Armour Lock so maybe each AA got heavily at different times. :)
DEEP, you are 100% correct. One of 343's talking heads, I think Frankie, did state that Sprint was added to H4 as a universal ability because of it's overwhelming popularity in Reach.
I would say this fact is reflected in the games I played in Reach. The only two AAs I used in Reach were Sprint and Hologram. Jetpack wasn't convenient because I play on Bumper Jumper. I would also say, most of my friends used Sprint with a Jetpack or two mixed in at times.
Thanks. Since you remember what I remember and unless someone insists, I'm not going to dig for a link.
I have to prep the house and such for my Wife's birthday and I shouldn't be spending so much time on here.
i think you have me confused with someone else. I NEVER ask for links or proof lol. I just state things as I know them, going by my friends, clan, and friends of friends I play(ed) with. Maybe I hung out with the only 50 people who never used sprint? Lol
...I'll try and find a link to comments on the matter by 343i. That's what I am going by and if my memory serves and a little luck I'll get that link. My own anecdotal experience was that it was heavily used but at one time it was Armour Lock so maybe each AA got heavily at different times. :)
DEEP, you are 100% correct. One of 343's talking heads, I think Frankie, did state that Sprint was added to H4 as a universal ability because of it's overwhelming popularity in Reach.
I would say this fact is reflected in the games I played in Reach. The only two AAs I used in Reach were Sprint and Hologram. Jetpack wasn't convenient because I play on Bumper Jumper. I would also say, most of my friends used Sprint with a Jetpack or two mixed in at times.
Thanks. Since you remember what I remember and unless someone insists, I'm not going to dig for a link.
I have to prep the house and such for my Wife's birthday and I shouldn't be spending so much time on here.
i think you have me confused with someone else. I NEVER ask for links or proof lol. I just state things as I know them, going by my friends, clan, and friends of friends I play(ed) with. Maybe I hung out with the only 50 people who never used sprint? Lol
I was more thinking about those who read but don't post a lot but yes, I was thinking of giving you something substantial (read that however you want lol). I don't like to leave people hanging on my memory of events and if I have a link to some kind of proof, I try to post it. It can be a lot of work at times.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Titanfall is a Halo killer. Yeah it has sprint, but it's built like that from the start. You can also run up walls. But it's a brand new IP, not trying to change a previously loved IP.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Titanfall is a Halo killer. Yeah it has sprint, but it's built like that from the start. You can also run up walls. But it's a brand new IP, not trying to change a previously loved IP.
I've already read more than a few comments about how it is just COD with mechs and a slightly different theme. So I sort of disagree with the underlined. I agree that it will stomp the last vestige of Halo population. At least for awhile. I say that because it hasn't any campaign or other compelling single player features. It has to stand on MM alone and that is a question mark. I am truly excited for this game but I am already thinking about what will bring me back to it over and over like Halo. Will it have a Hero or theme I really care about? At the moment, I'm not seeing that. The mechs/TITANS are not heroic AI and the humans are uninspiring so far.
Regarding TITANFALL Sprint. Do you think ex-Halo players are going to denigrate its sprint and/or jump packs? Will they just accept it and move on? Why would it be accepted in one game and rejected in another when the conditions are essentially the same? The conditions are exactly the same. I shoot at you, you shoot at me and we both shuck and jive to stay alive. Why is Halo considered some kind of iconic set of immutable attributes that shouldn't have changed since day one? I don't agree with that position. Each IP can/should evolve and as the old guard players disappear the new guard decides what is good enough or not. There is some kind of opinion that the original Halo CE players are still calling the shots on new Halo titles. That's a simple impossibility but there are many in forums who would try to convince you of otherwise. These people are but a fraction of the total Halo player base.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Titanfall is a Halo killer. Yeah it has sprint, but it's built like that from the start. You can also run up walls. But it's a brand new IP, not trying to change a previously loved IP.
I've already read more than a few comments about how it is just COD with mechs and a slightly different theme. So I sort of disagree with the underlined. I agree that it will stomp the last vestige of Halo population. At least for awhile. I say that because it hasn't any campaign or other compelling single player features. It has to stand on MM alone and that is a question mark. I am truly excited for this game but I am already thinking about what will bring me back to it over and over like Halo. Will it have a Hero or theme I really care about? At the moment, I'm not seeing that. The mechs/TITANS are not heroic AI and the humans are uninspiring so far.
Regarding TITANFALL Sprint. Do you think ex-Halo players are going to denigrate its sprint and/or jump packs? Will they just accept it and move on? Why would it be accepted in one game and rejected in another when the conditions are essentially the same? The conditions are exactly the same. I shoot at you, you shoot at me and we both shuck and jive to stay alive. Why is Halo considered some kind of iconic set of immutable attributes that shouldn't have changed since day one? I don't agree with that position. Each IP can/should evolve and as the old guard players disappear the new guard decides what is good enough or not. There is some kind of opinion that the original Halo CE players are still calling the shots on new Halo titles. That's a simple impossibility but there are many in forums who would try to convince you of otherwise. These people are but a fraction of the total Halo player base.
I'm a little ambivalent on Titanfall right now, but I can see that if they do it right, and layer the gameplay just so, there's a niche for it to pick up. Hell, I've said it before, Titanfall could end up as that Halo/CoD hybrid that 343's been pushing the franchise to.
The game being multiplayer only appeals to me. Get rid of the extra single-player bits and put more emphasis on the gameplay. I'd also assume that they'll be ultra focused on things like balance, for that's what their game essentially is.
Regardless if you like sprint or "many" do too, it doesn't make it good for Halo. I'm sure many love the Konami code too. Of course with that you can choose to use it or not. When sprint is built in and tied to a button, it makes everyone use it. Because everyone has access, it forces your hand. Your comparison to the shielding is invalid..... sprint + shield just doubles the fights that were already created originally in Halo CE to be a battle, not an escape (as a rule). Halo fights are already longer than any other FPS, and adding sprint just extends them even more and makes it a game of running away rather than fighting it out. I take issue with your opinion that halo has "always been a game of getting away" - maybe for you, but not for most people I've played with over the past 10-12 years.
"enhanced engagement/disengagement opportunities" - aka dragging out encounters.
I do care how weapons get on the map. The timed spawns, and having to learn over time where and when things spawned were part of the core Halo gameplay and have been since the start. It's what makes Halo, Halo.
It's hand holding for people who don't play much or who can't take the time or effort to learn the game nuances.
Ok what the hell..for the sake of conversation.
First, I'm not saying that sprint can't work. It does at times, but it's my opinion that it hurts more than it helps.
Overall, sprint + nade shortage (harder to control movement), map design (blocked sightlines, many escape routes, "bad loops"), longer kill times (5 shot weapons instead of 4 shot at launch), etc. seem to promote dis-engaging..
Let's talk engage/dis-engage. The same loop existed in previous Halo's, except there was more of an emphasis on decision making. You had to make a decision to dis-engage earlier. Due to cleaner map design, you couldn't run away as easily and also there were fewer directions to safely run in. To re-engage, you might have to approach from a bad position. There were risks and penalties for dis-engaging. Now, it's easier to dis-engage and the penalty for it is greatly reduced.
I think there's a balance in engage/dis-engage that keeps the average combat exchange "meaningful". If emphasis is too far on the dis-engage side and there's minimal threat of dying, then that takes away from the meaning and excitement of the exchange. If it's too far on the engage side, then player creativity and freedom is stifled.
That said, realistically sprint will be in Halo 5. Hopefully they figure out how to make it more enjoyable to the masses.
The other conversation would be pretty must wasted. The first thing that separates us is in-game success. My K/D is 0.74 and yours is ~1.5 and your CSR is 50 in Slayer with only 480 games in MM. I die twice as often. We are not going to share the same perspective or opinion on a lot of issues. For me, Halo 4 has always been about dying too fast and the weapon tuning made the situation even worse. REACH got weapon tuned to make it play faster and I didn't like that either.
The only thing important for us to converse about around here is how we can have fun playing at the same time. All the other stuff is not important anymore.
^^^ this
Wow. That's some heavy stuff, there. I wonder if 343 knew what they were getting into when they unleashed Sprint. It definitely doesn't get much love in this forum!
I like sprint. Just my opinion. I don't consider it a cheat. But it is true that it tends to drag out duels. But since I'm often one of the guys running away, I don't mind :)
Shadow, you are listing legitimate points that have turned off much of the Halo hardcore. So what would your ideal Halo sequel look like? With no sprint and ordinance drops, I reckon. What about armor abilities? Or Loadouts? Do you just want new maps, and that's it?
I don't mind loadouts. Maybe not Plasma pistol (that just makes vehicles useless). No sprint, no ordinance. AA's as pickups (like Overshield/Invis used to be) - that way you can fight for them.
Maps would organically change to smaller if there wasn't sprint. Obviously there would still need to be large maps for big team and vehicle based objective games.
I think this dispute should be settled the way that gentlemen throughout history have always settled things:
An arm-wrestling match to the death!
Also, I think some well-crafted insults about the other person's mother would be in order here. I know I would enjoy reading those.
"we can't fix what we've been given"
we sure can. Enough complaining and Armor Lock was out of Halo 4.
I have no illusions that my voice will mean anything - the sprint issue has already been complained to death everywhere. Just hoping they picked up on it already.
Which leads us back to riding the franchise into the ground because it tries to be what it isn't, as far as matchmaking goes.
No, it's not a problem. After they get millions of us to buy the game during the launch window, there is honestly no incentive to keep us happy. The only reason to keep us playing is to keep us around to buy DLC.
However, there are only so many times you can expect people to keep buying a game with a dwindling MM population. MM is what keeps the game current and on the minds of gamers.
DEEP, what you may not realize is that while you seem like you cannot be bothered by the MM population decline - it will eventually effect your custom games world. As fewer and fewer people play Halo, then what incentive does 343 have to update Forge or add back features we enjoyed from previous games? If people are abandoning the Halo ship, then what incentive does Microsoft and/or 343 have to dig deep and push for more features? Why add features for a game that is on the decline?
Also, I don't think anybody here is under any delusions of graduer that our opinions on the forum (or any forum for that matter) could have any sort of impact on the future of a game. However, it's obvious we still care about the franchise enough to want the game to be "successful". The declining MM population, not even one year after launch, is just depressing. I would say this alone is what 343 will really notice and perhaps start to rethink why people are leaving.
Should we really go back to a more authentic H2/H3 game? I don't know, but we can't really state how well a H2/H3 style game would do in today's market with so much more competition than when these two games were in their prime. Especially with games like Titanfall and Destiny on the horizon.
I'm tired now. ;)
COD4 came out in 2007 and has been very successful. I think they actually removed and tweaked new features that didn't work out so great. Imo they've done a good job evolving their game.
Overall I like the way Halo plays at this point, even if I disagree with a few things. My dislike of sprint is mainly due to its sometimes unnecessary effects on the maps. I think 343 does have a long way to go in making good maps, especially if they're to work well with their current game mechanics.
As far as the engage/disengage thing - compare your KD across H2, H3, H4, doubt it'll differ much. While sprint helps you stay alive, it also applies to your opponents and the playing field is level. In the end, same thing, just takes longer. Now if you prefer that then I can understand, but I do think sprint was intended to speed up gameplay.
I believe this was 343s thinking in having universal Sprint. However, as we've discussed it serves to slow down gameplay almost seemingly as much as it speeds it up.
I think the idea is it gets people to the action quicker. Much like instant respawns were intended to speed-up the game (I know another can of worms, for a different time...lol).
I have to wonder, if after they crunch all of the Halo 4 data, what the kill times will be like for H4 compared to the non-Sprint games.
I would hazard a non-educated guess, kill times haven't really changed. The larger maps to account for Sprint, seem to basically make engagement and kill times feel about the same to me. So I have to say, "what's the point?", other than to make the game seem faster or to give it more of a COD feel.
Anyway, I would be shocked to see Sprint removed from the next Halo game.
I just don't think it should be universal. Someone having sprint and jet pack (yeah Mike I'm lookin at you lol) is ridiculous. I think it should be an option like jet pack, invis, etc.
i disagree. Our of my friends, there were only a few who used sprint exclusively in Reach. Some people preferred jet pack, hologram, etc. Most of us had different choices for different maps. Jet pack on caged, hologram on ivory tower...you get the idea. I think only hardcore MLGers would pick sprint every time.
DEEP, you are 100% correct. One of 343's talking heads, I think Frankie, did state that Sprint was added to H4 as a universal ability because of it's overwhelming popularity in Reach.
I would say this fact is reflected in the games I played in Reach. The only two AAs I used in Reach were Sprint and Hologram. Jetpack wasn't convenient because I play on Bumper Jumper. I would also say, most of my friends used Sprint with a Jetpack or two mixed in at times.
I have to prep the house and such for my Wife's birthday and I shouldn't be spending so much time on here.
i think you have me confused with someone else. I NEVER ask for links or proof lol. I just state things as I know them, going by my friends, clan, and friends of friends I play(ed) with. Maybe I hung out with the only 50 people who never used sprint? Lol
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Titanfall is a Halo killer. Yeah it has sprint, but it's built like that from the start. You can also run up walls. But it's a brand new IP, not trying to change a previously loved IP.
Regarding TITANFALL Sprint. Do you think ex-Halo players are going to denigrate its sprint and/or jump packs? Will they just accept it and move on? Why would it be accepted in one game and rejected in another when the conditions are essentially the same? The conditions are exactly the same. I shoot at you, you shoot at me and we both shuck and jive to stay alive. Why is Halo considered some kind of iconic set of immutable attributes that shouldn't have changed since day one? I don't agree with that position. Each IP can/should evolve and as the old guard players disappear the new guard decides what is good enough or not. There is some kind of opinion that the original Halo CE players are still calling the shots on new Halo titles. That's a simple impossibility but there are many in forums who would try to convince you of otherwise. These people are but a fraction of the total Halo player base.
I'm a little ambivalent on Titanfall right now, but I can see that if they do it right, and layer the gameplay just so, there's a niche for it to pick up. Hell, I've said it before, Titanfall could end up as that Halo/CoD hybrid that 343's been pushing the franchise to.
The game being multiplayer only appeals to me. Get rid of the extra single-player bits and put more emphasis on the gameplay. I'd also assume that they'll be ultra focused on things like balance, for that's what their game essentially is.