Halo CE at RTX - Dat Skill Gap

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#1 Fri, 07/11/2014 - 15:24
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Halo CE at RTX - Dat Skill Gap

Sun, 07/13/2014 - 10:23
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Know your spawns, kids.

Sun, 07/13/2014 - 13:07
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Spawning on that Prisoner map was/is ridiculous.

Could still be fun though. The Reach version provided some fun so maybe the CE version will too.

Mon, 07/14/2014 - 13:20
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In all fairness, though, the guy he was playing against clearly had no clue. He was running around with his AR out the whole time.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 07:31 (Reply to #4)
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Tristan wrote:

In all fairness, though, the guy he was playing against clearly had no clue. He was running around with his AR out the whole time.

doesn't matter what gun you have out when you're getting spawn sniped.

Mon, 07/14/2014 - 13:31
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I never got to play on that map... :(

The vid proves good skill matching is important. 

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 08:51
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The whole CE/H2 were chess games discussion is un-winnable. You either like that style or you do not. That some people discovered all of the spawn positions and then others memorized them, was both incredible and kind of sad. Note that the memory trick starts to fail as the maps get larger than arena and so does the popularity of BTB maps in competition. It may have been good for one style of competition but likely would have excluded many potential fans. 

From H3 on, developers tried to improve spawning by making it safer for the spawner. Memorization was/is not as useful with so many spawn points and subroutines for added spawning influences.

Reach was better than H3 in my opinion but I think H4 was some kind of merging of many ideas on spawning. I can't say I believe it worked. That being said, H4's spawning can be read well enough with the "we're here, therefore they must be spawning over there" rule. I believe Skyline can still spawn attackers on the enemies flag and that is just ridiculous. Zealot in Reach had the same flaw but may have been repairable.

I believe safe spawning should be sacrosanct in games like Halo. It doesn't seem to be perfectly possible yet.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 10:28
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Spawning is never going to perfect or safe in any game.  If you start setting up spawn zones behind shielded doors or invulnerability for a few seconds, that just adds to an already muddied game.  I was never a fan of swapping spawns either.  If you allow a team to push that far into your "base", you deserve to lose.  Swapping spawns typically prolongs the inevitable.  And actually, it's not that difficult to learn/memorize spawn positions.  Every map has an ideal setup(s) to maintain lines of sights, height, defense, offense, etc.  When you are able to achieve these setups in MM or custom games, you begin to notice spawn patterns.  Repeat ad infinitum and it's similar to developing a new skill.  I'm sure there are some people out there that go into custom games with others or guest controllers to determine exact spawns, but most are learned just by playing the game and paying attention.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 19:36 (Reply to #8)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Spawning is never going to perfect or safe in any game.  If you start setting up spawn zones behind shielded doors or invulnerability for a few seconds, that just adds to an already muddied game.  I was never a fan of swapping spawns either.  If you allow a team to push that far into your "base", you deserve to lose.  Swapping spawns typically prolongs the inevitable.  And actually, it's not that difficult to learn/memorize spawn positions.  Every map has an ideal setup(s) to maintain lines of sights, height, defense, offense, etc.  When you are able to achieve these setups in MM or custom games, you begin to notice spawn patterns.  Repeat ad infinitum and it's similar to developing a new skill.  I'm sure there are some people out there that go into custom games with others or guest controllers to determine exact spawns, but most are learned just by playing the game and paying attention.

 

Completely agree.  Halo 4 had the added problems of having instant respawn in too.  On smaller maps, that meant that the person you just took out coule and sometimes did come immediately back (thanks standard sprint) to see if they could get you before your shields came back.

 

The vanilla spawns in Halo 3 weren't really bad either.  For example, on Narrows (or The Pit, but in this case, you had those awful spawns up above platform that were never a good idea), they didn't quite make sense after you played a flag game on them, and you saw them not flip.  It just made better sense and better flow.  Back in CE, some of those spawns are out in the wide open, which is a recipe for 1v1 spawn killing, like you saw in the video.  The system for more sophisticated in 2 and 3, and got weird in Reach.  

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 11:54
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Spawn killers likely won't be in noob games if there's good skill matching.

 

 

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 18:38 (Reply to #10)
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Minotaur wrote:

Spawn killers likely won't be in noob games if there's good skill matching.

This. The whole "they need to dumb down the game for the unskilled masses since they outnumber the skilled players" argument is moot if the matchmaking system would actually do what it's supposed to.

CE was wildly popular among noobs and pros alike. My friends and I all sucked at the game but had fun because we all sucked more or less equally. Bungie didn't need to dumb it down to an SMG spam-fest for Halo 2. The matchmaking was made to keep noobs playing against noobs and hardcore players against other hardcore players.

Nobody thinks the NBA needs to dumb down basketball so that the weekend warriors at the local YMCA can have a chance against LeBron James.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 11:37 (Reply to #11)
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Tristan wrote:

Minotaur wrote:

Spawn killers likely won't be in noob games if there's good skill matching.

This. The whole "they need to dumb down the game for the unskilled masses since they outnumber the skilled players" argument is moot if the matchmaking system would actually do what it's supposed to.

Perfect skill matching, unfortunately,  is a rare commodity.  It can happen when the population is high, and there are lots of players to choose from. It rarely happens when you go in as a party with mixed skill friends. It rarely happens when the population is low. So, we get AAs and other stuff for the social playlists and a selection of pro settings playlists for those who don't like AAs.

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 12:27
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And ironically, when did the population dwindle to the point where you rarely get good skill matching? When they added armor lock, jet packs, bloom, random ordnance drops, etc. Better skill matching would have been possible if they hadn't killed the Halo population by trying to turn Halo into COD.

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 15:43 (Reply to #13)
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Tristan wrote:

And ironically, when did the population dwindle to the point where you rarely get good skill matching? When they added armor lock, jet packs, bloom, random ordnance drops, etc. Better skill matching would have been possible if they hadn't killed the Halo population by trying to turn Halo into COD.

Whoa partner... Correlation does not imply causation.

I do imagine it's more difficult than most of us know to create, build and maintain/grow a thriving MM population over years.

As good as H2 MM was (and I'll take your word for it), could the gaming community maintain the Halo MM player population for a decade if nothing ever changed (except maybe better graphics/netcode)? Care to speculate on the player population a year from when MCC is released?  Interesting questions. I guess we'll see.  :)

 

 

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 19:45 (Reply to #14)
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Minotaur wrote:

Whoa partner... Correlation does not imply causation.

I do imagine it's more difficult than most of us know to create, build and maintain/grow a thriving MM population over years.

As good as H2 MM was (and I'll take your word for it), could the gaming community maintain the Halo MM player population for a decade if nothing ever changed (except maybe better graphics/netcode)? Care to speculate on the player population a year from when MCC is released?  Interesting questions. I guess we'll see.  :)

 

I know correlation != causation (probably should have worded the earlier post differently), but I'm basing that on what I know from everyone on my friends list (and others I've talked to on forums). Nearly all of my friends who played Halo 3 several nights a week pretty much quit playing a little after Reach came out. Their reason? According to them, they quit because they didn't like the game. The maps, the AAs, guns that don't shoot straight, lack of a ranking system, etc.

A few held out hope for Halo 4, especially when they saw that 343 finally did a Title Update for Reach ("Gee, looks like they actually care about the game. Maybe there's hope!"). Then once H4 came out with most of the same problems as Reach, everyone left for good.

According to them, they didn't leave because COD was better. They'd rather be playing Halo, but it's like that phrase in politics: "I didn't leave Halo, Halo left me."

I'll be curious to see how the population holds for the MCC. It'll bring back a lot of the Halo fans, but probably not the super casual players who move on to the latest game of the month. But then, those were never the type of players who gave sustaining numbers to the Halo population anyway, just the initial spike.

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 22:38 (Reply to #15)
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Tristan wrote:

I'll be curious to see how the population holds for the MCC. It'll bring back a lot of the Halo fans, but probably not the super casual players who move on to the latest game of the month. But then, those were never the type of players who gave sustaining numbers to the Halo population anyway, just the initial spike.

But what kind of players are the ones who've been filling Halo 4's MM for the last year? It can't be competitive arena players who often call themselves the hardcore Halo players. BTB style playlists are the only ones with any substantial population. Anything even close to competitive arena style playlists are the worst for population. The same was true for Reach. So perhaps, if anything, it's the competitive arena hardcore population that desert Halo titles early, along with the very normal one-and-done Internet crowd.

It's always true that MM population drops like a turd into a bowl three months after release. It's what happens after that which shows the legs of a game. What kind of player sticks with a game? Just look at the playlist populations. I'd call them dedicated casual players. They certainly don't fit the hardcore competitive mold.

Dixon had an idea Halo 4's current population is coming from the after market, used game and bargin bins. If it's true that Halo 3 was the best 360 Halo title, then why hasn't the Halo 3 population been much higher for the same reason? Probably because people play the newest title for it's more popular features and not because it is the most competitive.

Halo 4's population has sucked hard for over a year but it has been very steady. I wonder if 343i should love or hate that crowd?

I suggest, a game must be popular for many more reasons than just competitiveness.

Fri, 07/25/2014 - 12:44 (Reply to #16)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Tristan wrote:

I'll be curious to see how the population holds for the MCC. It'll bring back a lot of the Halo fans, but probably not the super casual players who move on to the latest game of the month. But then, those were never the type of players who gave sustaining numbers to the Halo population anyway, just the initial spike.

But what kind of players are the ones who've been filling Halo 4's MM for the last year? It can't be competitive arena players who often call themselves the hardcore Halo players. BTB style playlists are the only ones with any substantial population. Anything even close to competitive arena style playlists are the worst for population. The same was true for Reach. So perhaps, if anything, it's the competitive arena hardcore population that desert Halo titles early, along with the very normal one-and-done Internet crowd.

I suggest, a game must be popular for many more reasons than just competitiveness.

 

FYI, every one of my friends who played every night and then all quit Halo with Reach and H4 were casual players who played BTB and Social Slayer, not MLG. Players who care about balanced game mechanics are a lot more than just those who play in the MLG/Arena/Throwdown playlists. I've been critical of MLG's ultra-minimalist approach to gametypes on these forums in the past, so it's not like I'm some die-hard MLG fanatic who looks down on Social players.

Also, just because most of the few remaining players don't care about balanced game mechanics doesn't mean those things don't matter and developers should dumb the game down. What if, hypothetically, they really messed up Halo 5 so that only Action Sack players still played? Would that mean that Halo 6 should basically be Action Sack? That's like those failing restaurant owners on Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares who say they don't want to change anything for fear of alienating the dozen customers they have left. "I know we only have 5 people a day eat here, but I'm worried those 5 people will quit coming if I change the menu and decor."

Mon, 07/28/2014 - 22:56 (Reply to #17)
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Tristan wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Tristan wrote:

I'll be curious to see how the population holds for the MCC. It'll bring back a lot of the Halo fans, but probably not the super casual players who move on to the latest game of the month. But then, those were never the type of players who gave sustaining numbers to the Halo population anyway, just the initial spike.

But what kind of players are the ones who've been filling Halo 4's MM for the last year? It can't be competitive arena players who often call themselves the hardcore Halo players. BTB style playlists are the only ones with any substantial population. Anything even close to competitive arena style playlists are the worst for population. The same was true for Reach. So perhaps, if anything, it's the competitive arena hardcore population that desert Halo titles early, along with the very normal one-and-done Internet crowd.

I suggest, a game must be popular for many more reasons than just competitiveness.

 

FYI, every one of my friends who played every night and then all quit Halo with Reach and H4 were casual players who played BTB and Social Slayer, not MLG. Players who care about balanced game mechanics are a lot more than just those who play in the MLG/Arena/Throwdown playlists. I've been critical of MLG's ultra-minimalist approach to gametypes on these forums in the past, so it's not like I'm some die-hard MLG fanatic who looks down on Social players.

Also, just because most of the few remaining players don't care about balanced game mechanics doesn't mean those things don't matter and developers should dumb the game down. What if, hypothetically, they really messed up Halo 5 so that only Action Sack players still played? Would that mean that Halo 6 should basically be Action Sack? That's like those failing restaurant owners on Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares who say they don't want to change anything for fear of alienating the dozen customers they have left. "I know we only have 5 people a day eat here, but I'm worried those 5 people will quit coming if I change the menu and decor."

 

Halo 4 was basically Fiesta Slayer.

Mon, 07/28/2014 - 09:50 (Reply to #18)
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Tristan wrote:

And ironically, when did the population dwindle to the point where you rarely get good skill matching? When they added armor lock, jet packs, bloom, random ordnance drops, etc. Better skill matching would have been possible if they hadn't killed the Halo population by trying to turn Halo into COD.

sprint.

which begat bad gameplay, and killed map remakes.

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 17:05
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Halo will die/hibernate, until Halo 5, ~3 months after TMCC releases. I don't want that to happen, but I say the signs and influences are lining up. I just can't see TMCC holding on to anyone for long. I've loved every Halo too.

Of course 343i could surprise us all and drop Halo 5 multiplayer just before summer school break.

Thu, 07/24/2014 - 11:09
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The competitive crowd abandoned Halo because Halo (343/Bungie) abandoned them.  Reach and H4 are decent games, they’re just not good Halo games.  Remember, the competitive crowd comprised a large percentage of H3’s population.  If 343 wants to cater to the 25-30k daily players, they have every right.  But with most of those casual players, how many will actually purchase DLC for the extra income for 343?  Based on population numbers whenever 343 introduces a DLC playlist, not many.  But all this bickering between the casual/competitive players is only a by-product of the real problems:  Balance, luck/randomness, and ranking.  Fix these 3 things, players both casual and competitive and all those in-between, will return and stay for longer.  And that’s what we need.  We need competitive players to return and stay.  If the game is competitive and popular, MLG will pick it up.  That’s free advertisement for 343 and helps bring in new players.  If the casuals play and also stay, it allows for newer plays to match up against similarly skilled opponents.  As stated above, the bigger population H5 has, the more restrictive 343 can be on their true-skill matching.  No one likes to match up against people widely outside their skill range.  Both groups may hate each other, but they both need each other.

Now who should 343 listen to to return to H3 population numbers?  The competitive crowd.  You may not like my answer, but just bear with me for a moment.

Who would be more inclined to ditch the game due to un-balanced weapons?  The competitive crowd.

Who would be more inclined to ditch the game due to un-balanced maps?  Competitive crowd.

Who would be more inclined to ditch the game due to randomness/luck being involved?  Same as above.

Now, who would be more inclined to not care as much if weapons and maps were balanced, and randomness/luck was minimized?  The casual players.

The casual players just don’t care as much as the competitive crowd, and that’s a good thing.  They just play.  To have fun, be with friends, socialize, enjoy the game, whatever, they just play.  Title updates have no real effect on them.  They adjust and move on.  I know this because when H3 launched, I was in the casual crowd.  And in all honesty, I’m still in that crowd, but also in the competitive crowd.  I refer to myself as casually competitive.  That’s why I can understand both sides of the coin.  Why we need craziness, btb, vehicles, and easily useable weapons.  But also why we need balance, skill, and while the weapons are easily accessible, they are difficult to master, aka, skill gap.  If the game contains both these equations, the population will maintain a high number.  How many of you have ever joined a game (not necessarily Halo) because when you logged on, you saw your friends playing that game?  I expect many of you have.  The Halo population is under the snowball effect.

Obviously, 343 can’t listen to everything the competitive crowd wants or else we will be left with 2-3 weapons that are all highly skill based, boring, symmetrical maps with little to offer graphics wise, and a slew of other things.  But 343 can listen to the basics the competitive crowd wants:  weapon and map balancing, and minimizing randomness. While a casual player may or may not care that they lost a game because they got a needler/stickies/speed boost ordnance drop while his opponent received a binary/stickies/overshield and used that binary for the final few kills, it will absolutely matter to the competitive person. In essence, while neither group wants to admit it, they both need each other. 

Will the competitive crowd come back for H5?  Yes and no.  The last two games have really burned them and their trust in Halo developers.  But if the game caters to some of their needs, they will come back, in addition to the casuals.  Will the casuals be back for H5?  Yes, but if it caters to them, the population will be about the same as it is now and the competitive crowd will go elsewhere.   As Deep stated, the first 3 months of H5 will have fairly large numbers population wise.  The question remains on how those numbers will fare after.  It’s all up to 343.

P.S.  Apologies for any grammar and/or spelling errors, in addition to the disorganization of my post.  I typed this all on my phone and didn’t care to edit. lol  

Thu, 07/24/2014 - 11:12
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Wtf, why did my formatting fuck up? *sigh* I will fix it when I go home for lunch.

 

*fixed formatting finally*

Thu, 07/24/2014 - 16:57
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Awesome. 

I was hoping this dumb argument would never die.

Thu, 07/24/2014 - 17:26 (Reply to #23)
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FreynApThyr wrote:

Awesome. 

I was hoping this dumb argument would never die.

LOL.

Wait until TMCC arrives for an entirely re-newed set of "Why I left Halo" excuses. We'll get 4 games-worth in one blow. The final blow will be the Beta.  "343i can't make a Halo because ..."! It's going to be ridiculous.laugh

 

Fri, 07/25/2014 - 12:51
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When MCC was announced, the first thing I thought was:

"343 was giving the most vocal in the Halo community exactly what they asked for - to demonstrate what really matters in the current online gaming market. This would end the debate and end the comparison of 343's Halos to the glory days of H2/3 once and for all."

Fri, 07/25/2014 - 13:30 (Reply to #25)
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Minotaur wrote:
This would end the debate and end the comparison of 343's Halos to the glory days of H2/3 once and for all."

I'd like to believe this but instead I believe people are more affected by aesthetics and new combat mechanics that they care to admit. So perhaps even if Halo CE for example, seems to be the best multiplayer version of Halo, no one will stay with it and it we'll never learn the truth of it.

Fri, 07/25/2014 - 13:49 (Reply to #26)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
This would end the debate and end the comparison of 343's Halos to the glory days of H2/3 once and for all."

I'd like to believe this but instead I believe people are more affected by aesthetics and new combat mechanics that they care to admit. So perhaps even if Halo CE for example, seems to be the best multiplayer version of Halo, no one will stay with it and it we'll never learn the truth of it.

Of course, you have your finger on the pulse of Halo better than I, but I disagree a bit. If the H4 population count is above the others some months after MCC launches, 343 will be vindicated. If the earlier Halos have a higher pop count some months after, the vocal minority will be vindicated. And, we'll be able to answer those who pine for the past or the future with real data. 

Fri, 07/25/2014 - 15:46 (Reply to #27)
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Minotaur wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
This would end the debate and end the comparison of 343's Halos to the glory days of H2/3 once and for all."

I'd like to believe this but instead I believe people are more affected by aesthetics and new combat mechanics that they care to admit. So perhaps even if Halo CE for example, seems to be the best multiplayer version of Halo, no one will stay with it and it we'll never learn the truth of it.

Of course, you have your finger on the pulse of Halo better than I, but I disagree a bit. If the H4 population count is above the others some months after MCC launches, 343 will be vindicated. If the earlier Halos have a higher pop count some months after, the vocal minority will be vindicated. And, we'll be able to answer those who pine for the past or the future with real data. 

I'm not really disagreeing with you on that and I don't really have any fingers on the pulse. Just very opinionated. I've already predicted Halo 4 will likely be the reigning title a few months after TMCC releases. If the reverse is true and Halo CE or 2 is on top then as you say, those who crave past Halo glory may be correct. Halo 3 is kind of in the middle so I don't know what to say about it other than it always was a pretty game and it might shine quite well next to Halo 4.

Mon, 07/28/2014 - 10:49
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Do you think there will ever be a day non-sprint games will be in vogue again?

I don't.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 14:21 (Reply to #29)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Do you think there will ever be a day non-sprint games will be in vogue again?

I don't.

I hope so.  It ruined FPS for me - stupid CoD.  Games go in cycles it seems, so we'll see.

For MP arena, sprint doesn't make sense.  All it does is make the maps bigger.  If everyone has it, it's no different than if no one has it, fight-wise.

Minotaur wrote:

I was amazed a bit by Bungie's Destiny... Amazed that Destiny moved a giant step farther away from the MLG crowd by including all sorts of standard abilities, including sprint. 

Destiny isn't an MLG-style competitive game to begin with, even with the Arena.  I can't see a ton of people playing that.  It's Borderlands, basically.

Mon, 07/28/2014 - 11:18
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I was amazed a bit by Bungie's Destiny... Amazed that Destiny moved a giant step farther away from the MLG crowd by including all sorts of standard abilities, including sprint. 

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