The gameplay mechanic has changed, and the sandbox is far too large. Change is good, but change for the sake of wanting to change is never a good thing. Why fix something that isn't broken?
Having to fight for camo/OS/sniper/Rockets was one of the things that kept me hooked on this game over CoD. CoD is enjoyable, but now there really isn't that much difference between the two.
I wanted to single out this part of your post and talk a bit on it.
When 343 was talking about Halo 4 well before its release, they mentioned things such as the drops in different places around the map to change the flow of the game. They said they didn't want people to just wait by rocket spawn the whole match and that's where the action was. They also (if I am remembering correctly) mentioned that before these random spawns would be some indication that a weapon was coming there. I think that got changed, because now it seems the weapons can drop and you won't get an icon over it until a few seconds later.
To me, its a random factor. In games with competition and tournaments in mind, factors that are random and outside of player control can alter the outcome but also detract from the game. I played in a few Super Smash Bros Melee tournaments in the past, and in those the items were set to completely off, and maps were chosen that didn't have random factors on them as well. The idea was to limit things that could suddenly and randomly give a player an advantage that could change the games outcome otherwise.
343 has added these random factors on purpose, and not even done so well. If rockets spawn on Abandon, I know where they are. I can stand on their spawn when they aren't there, because that's where they've always spawned. When they spawn changes, but not where.
In any event, I'm not sure if camping timed weapon spawns is a great system. I feel though that ordnance is a far worse system though, especially with regards to competitive/tournament play.
To me a close match that a team is winning shouldn't be suddenly decided when the losing team has an inceneration cannon spawn right in front of them. The team in the lead wouldn't have lost because of their failures, but because 343 had chosen through its random drops to let the other guys win that time.
I don't mind having loadouts though. Especially in SWAT. I think unlocking weapons and customizing a loadout to bring into a battle is not the greatest feature Halo has had, for sure. Being able to get the same choices as every other player in the match and picking based on your personal preference is well, my preference.
It's not camping to control a power weapon location, nor to control custom in H3/reach MLG. That's the problem.
Map control.
There is NO NEED to have any sort of map control in H4 slayer. A team can run with AR's blazing, and pick where their ordinance drops. There really is no strategy to slayer anymore. Take Reach for example. Think about playing Hemorrhage. Typically the fights were at the cave/ledge or at either teleport. There was a distinct fight for map control. The game was balanced. Both teams had the exact same weapons and abilities.
Now, imagine the same map, but in the H4 universe. The initial battles will be in the same locations, BUT someone will get a binary and the other person will get a needler. In order for this to work there needs to be an order to ordinance, and limits on the amount of drops, or just get rid of the shitty ordinance and go back to gameplay that worked...
enough thoughts about going back, I'm sure they won't pull O.D.'s, so now, weighting them. Limit the number of weapons that can be dropped, and also make a limit to the number of how many you can get. The code is already there for number allowable on map, why can't they float a number for each weapon or give the initial person to get ordinance the best weapons that map can offer?
ie: Player gets first ordinance and gets choice of an explosive weapon, a precision weapon, or an armor trait (Rockets(1)/Incendiary Cannon(1)/Laser(1)/Detonator(1)), (Binary Rifle(1)/Sniper(1)/Beam Rifle(1)), (Speed Boost(1)/Overshield(1)/Damage Boost(1)) Each weapon can only be picked once per team, and each weapon can only have one on map at a time from ordinance. If the weapon spawns on the map originally, then it should be taken out of the O.D. rotation and placed on an old school timed respawn with map limiters in place.
It's really not that hard of a fix, I just think that 343 is too stubborn to admit they were wrong and make the changes. I really hope I'm wrong though.
Don't get me wrong, while I agree with a lot of what the post had to say, I still enjoy playing H4. That being said however, I will most likely move back to Borderlands 2 and/or Bioshock Infinite. Usually once I do that, I don't return.
That post hit a nerve on me when I read it. When H3 came out, I enjoyed it for 3-4 months, and then moved on to the latest COD game (I don't recall what it was). When Reach came out, I don't think I stayed with it for over a month... maybe 2. I played H2 for YEARS. YEARS - I thought about that, and the reason I played H2 for so long was the team aspect of it. That lessened in H3 and even more in Reach. I feel like it's disappeared in H4.
The cohesiveness just doesn't feel like it's there anymore. Maybe it's me. Maybe I've burned out on competitive MP. And although that maybe a bit of it, I think a lot of it has to do with the decline in the competitve MP within Halo.
But I do know that there isn't much there in H4 to hold me in like H2 did.
Soup, to put it into perspective though, when H2 came out there was nothing else.
I played H3 for 3 years up until Reach. Played about 4,000 games of it and loved it. Reach, I played a couple months and done. H4 I'm already barely playing in January at all. Maybe it's "the one you play online first" that gets you. I didn't play H2 online, really. Only local.
Shadow you mentioned that there was nothing else out at the time, but H2 was the freaking bomb when you talk about competitive gameplay. A handful of good maps, just enough weapons to give slight variety, and the game was built around controlling a map. It is a basic concept of anything competitive. In basketball your goal is to always try and control the pain. In chess you always want to control the middle of the board. Even in football you try to keep a team pinned back as far as you can to give you better field position when they punt. This is nothing new under the sun. 343 has effectively removed this aspect though.......and it has a huge effect on gameplay. Some of you can argue that all you want, but it's a fact. In H2 you had to put in work, a lot of it, to learn how to control a map, the weapons, and the spawns. It was not easy by any means when the playing field was level. If you played a weaker opponent or an unorganized team then yes it was a blowout. That holds true for any competitive game though. Some of the best battles I remember when on Beaver Creek in H2 when the OS was coming up. You can't even do nade throws anymore. I mean that was an great skill to be able to learn in H2 to help bring weapons to you. So many little details that made H2 great are now gone. Nade throws, flag throwing, odd ball tatics, slayer games that could literally be a shootout (can't do that anymore because you run out of ammo),
The difference between competitive players and everything else to me is how much time to details are given and not necessarily skill. In H2 we spent I don't know how how many hours firing up a custom game with guests signed in just to learn spawns based on where we were on the map. BR battles on top glass of Lockout. Practicing grenade throws on the maps......I could keep going and going. For anyone to say Halo 3 and all titles forward are better or not that far off from H2 is just crazy. It's not even a contest how H2 played versus the rest. I bet you money also that if you could still do h2 online it would still have a decent group of people signed on playing it. I know I would in a heartbeat.
Shadow you mentioned that there was nothing else out at the time, but H2 was the freaking bomb when you talk about competitive gameplay. A handful of good maps, just enough weapons to give slight variety, and the game was built around controlling a map. It is a basic concept of anything competitive. In basketball your goal is to always try and control the pain. In chess you always want to control the middle of the board. Even in football you try to keep a team pinned back as far as you can to give you better field position when they punt. This is nothing new under the sun. 343 has effectively removed this aspect though.......and it has a huge effect on gameplay. Some of you can argue that all you want, but it's a fact. In H2 you had to put in work, a lot of it, to learn how to control a map, the weapons, and the spawns. It was not easy by any means when the playing field was level. If you played a weaker opponent or an unorganized team then yes it was a blowout. That holds true for any competitive game though. Some of the best battles I remember when on Beaver Creek in H2 when the OS was coming up. You can't even do nade throws anymore. I mean that was an great skill to be able to learn in H2 to help bring weapons to you. So many little details that made H2 great are now gone. Nade throws, flag throwing, odd ball tatics, slayer games that could literally be a shootout (can't do that anymore because you run out of ammo),
The difference between competitive players and everything else to me is how much time to details are given and not necessarily skill. In H2 we spent I don't know how how many hours firing up a custom game with guests signed in just to learn spawns based on where we were on the map. BR battles on top glass of Lockout. Practicing grenade throws on the maps......I could keep going and going. For anyone to say Halo 3 and all titles forward are better or not that far off from H2 is just crazy. It's not even a contest how H2 played versus the rest. I bet you money also that if you could still do h2 online it would still have a decent group of people signed on playing it. I know I would in a heartbeat.
I didn't say it wasn't good. I said there was nothing else out, which is a factor. Same as why everyone loves Goldeneye. It was unique for the time. Curious what you mean by "you can't do nade throws". ???
Shadow you mentioned that there was nothing else out at the time, but H2 was the freaking bomb when you talk about competitive gameplay. A handful of good maps, just enough weapons to give slight variety, and the game was built around controlling a map. It is a basic concept of anything competitive. In basketball your goal is to always try and control the pain. In chess you always want to control the middle of the board. Even in football you try to keep a team pinned back as far as you can to give you better field position when they punt. This is nothing new under the sun. 343 has effectively removed this aspect though.......and it has a huge effect on gameplay. Some of you can argue that all you want, but it's a fact. In H2 you had to put in work, a lot of it, to learn how to control a map, the weapons, and the spawns. It was not easy by any means when the playing field was level. If you played a weaker opponent or an unorganized team then yes it was a blowout. That holds true for any competitive game though. Some of the best battles I remember when on Beaver Creek in H2 when the OS was coming up. You can't even do nade throws anymore. I mean that was an great skill to be able to learn in H2 to help bring weapons to you. So many little details that made H2 great are now gone. Nade throws, flag throwing, odd ball tatics, slayer games that could literally be a shootout (can't do that anymore because you run out of ammo),
The difference between competitive players and everything else to me is how much time to details are given and not necessarily skill. In H2 we spent I don't know how how many hours firing up a custom game with guests signed in just to learn spawns based on where we were on the map. BR battles on top glass of Lockout. Practicing grenade throws on the maps......I could keep going and going. For anyone to say Halo 3 and all titles forward are better or not that far off from H2 is just crazy. It's not even a contest how H2 played versus the rest. I bet you money also that if you could still do h2 online it would still have a decent group of people signed on playing it. I know I would in a heartbeat.
I didn't say it wasn't good. I said there was nothing else out, which is a factor. Same as why everyone loves Goldeneye. It was unique for the time. Curious what you mean by "you can't do nade throws". ???
Pre H4 you could throw a nade and bounce a power weapon to you from it's spawn.
AFAIK, there really is no need to "practice" since H3. The spawns have been BS since then, and the players will often spawn beside or behind you. That was pretty much the decline of map control.
Once you learned how to float the map, you could lock someone into a spawn region. That was part of the fun of halo, knowing exactly where your opponent would spawn based upon your teammates waypoints.
Now, we don't get waypoints for teammates, but we have waypoints for every little BS change they have put into the game. This has been a rant of mine before launch, and is still a rant. Put a waypoint above our teammates heads. The radar is not effective at letting us know where our team is at during a match.
There is only one thing that is right with Halo 4, and that is that everything is hitscan.
I used to be competitive. The group I played with used to practice in customs, from spawn spots to no scoping, we practiced a lot. I miss it. But there's been no point since Reach. *sigh* This thread is making me sad.
I would disagree with you eksessiv. What "made Halo" was the fact that it was the only game on xbox that was worth playing for the longest time(be it a good one). In my opinion, competitive players had very little do do with it. It can be more attributed to what was available at the time of H2 on Xbox. Also, how can anyone but the actual designers of the game say what the game should or shouldn't be? At least that's how I've always felt.
Knowing what I now know about spawning since Forge came out, it does seem impressive how much time players must have been spent figuring out Halo 2's respawn system.
Knowing what I now know about spawning since Forge came out, it does seem impressive how much time players must have been spent figuring out Halo 2's respawn system.
I remember breaking down the difference in V5 to V6 on Construct with regards to differences in spawns. There was one additional spawn on closed side upstairs which had an impact on the game.
Well you demonstrated our point perfectly. Spawn camping was never the problem. Poor matchmaking as far as even skill levels was the main issue. Just because a team is able to get control of the map does not mean the spawns are broken.
The ranks should never start from zero. Everyone should start in the middle and you either regress or progress in the ranks. It would remove better players who get a new tag from destroying the lesser skilled players.
I will add that the H4 spawns are completely jacked. Not sure how many times I have either benefited or been the victim of killing someone and they respawn basically in the same spot you killed them. This is only a problem in slayer because someone can press X and spawn immediately before your shields are even back.
The ranks should never start from zero. Everyone should start in the middle and you either regress or progress in the ranks. It would remove better players who get a new tag from destroying the lesser skilled players.
Fairly sure that was the system employed in REACH. New players and new players in a playlist were given an average (middle) True Skill and moved up or down from there. It still presented problems in REACH MM because Bungie and 343i had too many playlists. It resulted in fewer players per playlist and that in turn reduced the quality of the skill matching. After that mess, it left people thinking True Skill didn't work and 1-50 would be a perfect world (not going to discuss that).
Every list should have a rank like it used to in H2. I do not feel it is fair to have a true skill that covers all playlists. I mean I've been on teams that get outslayed pretty heavily, but we still end up winning because it is CTF. My point being that each playlist presents a different way to play. Not everyone is going to be good at every single phase of Halo. I suck at BTB because I personally do not care for it. So the few times I play I more often than not get frustrated because you either need a vehicle or you have too many guys shooting at you. I can remember back in H2 though BTB being pretty organized once you got in the higher ranks. I just feel if you go into a game an dominate it the game should recognize that and give extra points to move you up faster.
Every list should have a rank like it used to in H2. I do not feel it is fair to have a true skill that covers all playlists. I mean I've been on teams that get outslayed pretty heavily, but we still end up winning because it is CTF. My point being that each playlist presents a different way to play. Not everyone is going to be good at every single phase of Halo. I suck at BTB because I personally do not care for it. So the few times I play I more often than not get frustrated because you either need a vehicle or you have too many guys shooting at you. I can remember back in H2 though BTB being pretty organized once you got in the higher ranks. I just feel if you go into a game an dominate it the game should recognize that and give extra points to move you up faster.
so true. if your skill is global then that is the end result.
i usually play 4v4/5v5. when i play BTB against someone of similar basic skills as me, i get owned in big team because i don't really like it, i don't play it as much, i don't know the maps as well, i don't use vehicles, and i don't like the style of play.
turn the tables and if i play 4v4 against someone of similar skill that usually plays BTB, then i'll probably put a hurting on them in the smaller play lists.
Every list should have a rank like it used to in H2. I do not feel it is fair to have a true skill that covers all playlists. I mean I've been on teams that get outslayed pretty heavily, but we still end up winning because it is CTF. My point being that each playlist presents a different way to play. Not everyone is going to be good at every single phase of Halo. I suck at BTB because I personally do not care for it. So the few times I play I more often than not get frustrated because you either need a vehicle or you have too many guys shooting at you. I can remember back in H2 though BTB being pretty organized once you got in the higher ranks. I just feel if you go into a game an dominate it the game should recognize that and give extra points to move you up faster.
I am not certain but the True Skill in REACH was based on each playlist. I.E. You could be ranked very high in True Skill for Team Slayer but never play CTF. If you did go into CTF you would start at a medium True Skill level and of course own, for about ~20 games. I could dig up Bungie's True Skill implementation stuff but few read it, fewer understand it and most say 1-50 is better anyway. I guess it's because is easier to say than some gobbledy gook formula. ;)
Every list should have a rank like it used to in H2. I do not feel it is fair to have a true skill that covers all playlists. I mean I've been on teams that get outslayed pretty heavily, but we still end up winning because it is CTF. My point being that each playlist presents a different way to play. Not everyone is going to be good at every single phase of Halo. I suck at BTB because I personally do not care for it. So the few times I play I more often than not get frustrated because you either need a vehicle or you have too many guys shooting at you. I can remember back in H2 though BTB being pretty organized once you got in the higher ranks. I just feel if you go into a game an dominate it the game should recognize that and give extra points to move you up faster.
I am not certain but the True Skill in REACH was based on each playlist. I.E. You could be ranked very high in True Skill for Team Slayer but never play CTF. If you did go into CTF you would start at a medium True Skill level and of course own, for about ~20 games. I could dig up Bungie's True Skill implementation stuff but few read it, fewer understand it and most say 1-50 is better anyway. I guess it's because is easier to say than some gobbledy gook formula. ;)
Either way, just make the ranks visible. Let us know how close we are to getting the next rank or how close we are from losing our current rank we are.
I don't think there's anything wrong with loadouts. I prefer them, so I don't get stuck using weapons I don't like. In Reach if it was an AR start, I'd just use the pistol until I happened upon a DMR.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. [B]Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.[/B]
No, I am meaning that you cannot see your teammate across the map teamshooting unless you happen to be looking at them. In previous iterations their waypoint would be yellow if in a fight. Now you don't know unless you are looking at them and now it turns purple. They changed a major mechanic of their waypoint system. The colors blend with several of the games environments. It's pretty bad. I also liked seeing the x to know where a teammate died, that way I could go and cleanup if necessary. You can see what I mean if you youtube a H3/Reach/H4 montage. You can see where your teammates are much better, and also know if they are in a firefight without them even communicating. You cannot tell this unless you are right next to them in H4.
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. [B]Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.[/B]
No, I am meaning that you cannot see your teammate across the map teamshooting unless you happen to be looking at them. In previous iterations their waypoint would be yellow if in a fight. Now you don't know unless you are looking at them and now it turns purple. They changed a major mechanic of their waypoint system. The colors blend with several of the games environments. It's pretty bad. I also liked seeing the x to know where a teammate died, that way I could go and cleanup if necessary. You can see what I mean if you youtube a H3/Reach/H4 montage. You can see where your teammates are much better, and also know if they are in a firefight without them even communicating. You cannot tell this unless you are right next to them in H4.
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. [B]Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.[/B]
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
the bolded part is not talking about seeing teammates - it's talking about weapon spawn bounce. That can break a game if it's unintended. Sure in Halo 2/3 people worked around it and adapted. But if you want a developer to fine tune a game and then have to also work in the fact that a grenade can knock a weapon to you (for instance, the Epitaph rockets), then it could be near impossible. I doubt weapon bouncing was intended - it just ended up that way due to the physics engine at the time.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. [B]Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.[/B]
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
the bolded part is not talking about seeing teammates - it's talking about weapon spawn bounce. That can break a game if it's unintended. Sure in Halo 2/3 people worked around it and adapted. But if you want a developer to fine tune a game and then have to also work in the fact that a grenade can knock a weapon to you (for instance, the Epitaph rockets), then it could be near impossible. I doubt weapon bouncing was intended - it just ended up that way due to the physics engine at the time.
I see, but with the removal of timed weapons; several aspects of the game that made it great are now gone; including bouncing weapons.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. [B]Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.[/B]
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
the bolded part is not talking about seeing teammates - it's talking about weapon spawn bounce. That can break a game if it's unintended. Sure in Halo 2/3 people worked around it and adapted. But if you want a developer to fine tune a game and then have to also work in the fact that a grenade can knock a weapon to you (for instance, the Epitaph rockets), then it could be near impossible. I doubt weapon bouncing was intended - it just ended up that way due to the physics engine at the time.
I see, but with the removal of timed weapons; several aspects of the game that made it great are now gone; including bouncing weapons.
I agree with the intended, timed weapon part. I don't agree that bouncing weapons is a good thing.
A lot of people don't agree with technical things that people learned. Nade throwing, weapon bouncing, button combos. I am not necessarily trying to open Pandora's box by mentioning button combos, but it was something that had to be learned. Even once you learned a combo you had to be able to do it under pressure in a game. People hated on that also. The irony of it is now you have one of the easiest combos as a tactical upgrade in Halo 4 with the fast reload. People used it all the time and now it is part of the game. No one says a thing now. Not being able to see a dead teammates X is a big item to be missing in my opinion. With the waypoint in the past you could always tell usually if your teammate was in a shoot out or was mowed down by something.
I swear I still see the flashing name if someone is in a shootout.
Button combos were an unintended glitch. They fixed the glitch. Just because some people liked the glitch doesn't mean it should be a part of future games. Etc.
I wanted to single out this part of your post and talk a bit on it.
When 343 was talking about Halo 4 well before its release, they mentioned things such as the drops in different places around the map to change the flow of the game. They said they didn't want people to just wait by rocket spawn the whole match and that's where the action was. They also (if I am remembering correctly) mentioned that before these random spawns would be some indication that a weapon was coming there. I think that got changed, because now it seems the weapons can drop and you won't get an icon over it until a few seconds later.
To me, its a random factor. In games with competition and tournaments in mind, factors that are random and outside of player control can alter the outcome but also detract from the game. I played in a few Super Smash Bros Melee tournaments in the past, and in those the items were set to completely off, and maps were chosen that didn't have random factors on them as well. The idea was to limit things that could suddenly and randomly give a player an advantage that could change the games outcome otherwise.
343 has added these random factors on purpose, and not even done so well. If rockets spawn on Abandon, I know where they are. I can stand on their spawn when they aren't there, because that's where they've always spawned. When they spawn changes, but not where.
In any event, I'm not sure if camping timed weapon spawns is a great system. I feel though that ordnance is a far worse system though, especially with regards to competitive/tournament play.
To me a close match that a team is winning shouldn't be suddenly decided when the losing team has an inceneration cannon spawn right in front of them. The team in the lead wouldn't have lost because of their failures, but because 343 had chosen through its random drops to let the other guys win that time.
I don't mind having loadouts though. Especially in SWAT. I think unlocking weapons and customizing a loadout to bring into a battle is not the greatest feature Halo has had, for sure. Being able to get the same choices as every other player in the match and picking based on your personal preference is well, my preference.
i like the personal loadouts. i just don't like the "unlocking" part.
that's something you do with the bling. nothing that actually affects the game. at least not for MM.
It's not camping to control a power weapon location, nor to control custom in H3/reach MLG. That's the problem.
Map control.
There is NO NEED to have any sort of map control in H4 slayer. A team can run with AR's blazing, and pick where their ordinance drops. There really is no strategy to slayer anymore. Take Reach for example. Think about playing Hemorrhage. Typically the fights were at the cave/ledge or at either teleport. There was a distinct fight for map control. The game was balanced. Both teams had the exact same weapons and abilities.
Now, imagine the same map, but in the H4 universe. The initial battles will be in the same locations, BUT someone will get a binary and the other person will get a needler. In order for this to work there needs to be an order to ordinance, and limits on the amount of drops, or just get rid of the shitty ordinance and go back to gameplay that worked...
enough thoughts about going back, I'm sure they won't pull O.D.'s, so now, weighting them. Limit the number of weapons that can be dropped, and also make a limit to the number of how many you can get. The code is already there for number allowable on map, why can't they float a number for each weapon or give the initial person to get ordinance the best weapons that map can offer?
ie: Player gets first ordinance and gets choice of an explosive weapon, a precision weapon, or an armor trait (Rockets(1)/Incendiary Cannon(1)/Laser(1)/Detonator(1)), (Binary Rifle(1)/Sniper(1)/Beam Rifle(1)), (Speed Boost(1)/Overshield(1)/Damage Boost(1)) Each weapon can only be picked once per team, and each weapon can only have one on map at a time from ordinance. If the weapon spawns on the map originally, then it should be taken out of the O.D. rotation and placed on an old school timed respawn with map limiters in place.
It's really not that hard of a fix, I just think that 343 is too stubborn to admit they were wrong and make the changes. I really hope I'm wrong though.
Don't get me wrong, while I agree with a lot of what the post had to say, I still enjoy playing H4. That being said however, I will most likely move back to Borderlands 2 and/or Bioshock Infinite. Usually once I do that, I don't return.
That post hit a nerve on me when I read it. When H3 came out, I enjoyed it for 3-4 months, and then moved on to the latest COD game (I don't recall what it was). When Reach came out, I don't think I stayed with it for over a month... maybe 2. I played H2 for YEARS. YEARS - I thought about that, and the reason I played H2 for so long was the team aspect of it. That lessened in H3 and even more in Reach. I feel like it's disappeared in H4.
The cohesiveness just doesn't feel like it's there anymore. Maybe it's me. Maybe I've burned out on competitive MP. And although that maybe a bit of it, I think a lot of it has to do with the decline in the competitve MP within Halo.
But I do know that there isn't much there in H4 to hold me in like H2 did.
Soup, to put it into perspective though, when H2 came out there was nothing else.
I played H3 for 3 years up until Reach. Played about 4,000 games of it and loved it. Reach, I played a couple months and done. H4 I'm already barely playing in January at all. Maybe it's "the one you play online first" that gets you. I didn't play H2 online, really. Only local.
the squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Soup hit it right on the head.
Shadow you mentioned that there was nothing else out at the time, but H2 was the freaking bomb when you talk about competitive gameplay. A handful of good maps, just enough weapons to give slight variety, and the game was built around controlling a map. It is a basic concept of anything competitive. In basketball your goal is to always try and control the pain. In chess you always want to control the middle of the board. Even in football you try to keep a team pinned back as far as you can to give you better field position when they punt. This is nothing new under the sun. 343 has effectively removed this aspect though.......and it has a huge effect on gameplay. Some of you can argue that all you want, but it's a fact. In H2 you had to put in work, a lot of it, to learn how to control a map, the weapons, and the spawns. It was not easy by any means when the playing field was level. If you played a weaker opponent or an unorganized team then yes it was a blowout. That holds true for any competitive game though. Some of the best battles I remember when on Beaver Creek in H2 when the OS was coming up. You can't even do nade throws anymore. I mean that was an great skill to be able to learn in H2 to help bring weapons to you. So many little details that made H2 great are now gone. Nade throws, flag throwing, odd ball tatics, slayer games that could literally be a shootout (can't do that anymore because you run out of ammo),
The difference between competitive players and everything else to me is how much time to details are given and not necessarily skill. In H2 we spent I don't know how how many hours firing up a custom game with guests signed in just to learn spawns based on where we were on the map. BR battles on top glass of Lockout. Practicing grenade throws on the maps......I could keep going and going. For anyone to say Halo 3 and all titles forward are better or not that far off from H2 is just crazy. It's not even a contest how H2 played versus the rest. I bet you money also that if you could still do h2 online it would still have a decent group of people signed on playing it. I know I would in a heartbeat.
I didn't say it wasn't good. I said there was nothing else out, which is a factor. Same as why everyone loves Goldeneye. It was unique for the time. Curious what you mean by "you can't do nade throws". ???
Pre H4 you could throw a nade and bounce a power weapon to you from it's spawn.
AFAIK, there really is no need to "practice" since H3. The spawns have been BS since then, and the players will often spawn beside or behind you. That was pretty much the decline of map control.
Once you learned how to float the map, you could lock someone into a spawn region. That was part of the fun of halo, knowing exactly where your opponent would spawn based upon your teammates waypoints.
Now, we don't get waypoints for teammates, but we have waypoints for every little BS change they have put into the game. This has been a rant of mine before launch, and is still a rant. Put a waypoint above our teammates heads. The radar is not effective at letting us know where our team is at during a match.
There is only one thing that is right with Halo 4, and that is that everything is hitscan.
I used to be competitive. The group I played with used to practice in customs, from spawn spots to no scoping, we practiced a lot. I miss it. But there's been no point since Reach. *sigh* This thread is making me sad.
I know I'd be down to invest more time if the gameplay was more in line with H1 and H2. H4 is still young, but a lot of key details have been removed.
I would disagree with you eksessiv. What "made Halo" was the fact that it was the only game on xbox that was worth playing for the longest time(be it a good one). In my opinion, competitive players had very little do do with it. It can be more attributed to what was available at the time of H2 on Xbox. Also, how can anyone but the actual designers of the game say what the game should or shouldn't be? At least that's how I've always felt.
That's fine. I can still argue that no other game since has been like H1 or H2. Games might be as popular, but not the same. My opinion.
Knowing what I now know about spawning since Forge came out, it does seem impressive how much time players must have been spent figuring out Halo 2's respawn system.
I remember breaking down the difference in V5 to V6 on Construct with regards to differences in spawns. There was one additional spawn on closed side upstairs which had an impact on the game.
Well you demonstrated our point perfectly. Spawn camping was never the problem. Poor matchmaking as far as even skill levels was the main issue. Just because a team is able to get control of the map does not mean the spawns are broken.
The ranks should never start from zero. Everyone should start in the middle and you either regress or progress in the ranks. It would remove better players who get a new tag from destroying the lesser skilled players.
I will add that the H4 spawns are completely jacked. Not sure how many times I have either benefited or been the victim of killing someone and they respawn basically in the same spot you killed them. This is only a problem in slayer because someone can press X and spawn immediately before your shields are even back.
Every list should have a rank like it used to in H2. I do not feel it is fair to have a true skill that covers all playlists. I mean I've been on teams that get outslayed pretty heavily, but we still end up winning because it is CTF. My point being that each playlist presents a different way to play. Not everyone is going to be good at every single phase of Halo. I suck at BTB because I personally do not care for it. So the few times I play I more often than not get frustrated because you either need a vehicle or you have too many guys shooting at you. I can remember back in H2 though BTB being pretty organized once you got in the higher ranks. I just feel if you go into a game an dominate it the game should recognize that and give extra points to move you up faster.
so true. if your skill is global then that is the end result.
i usually play 4v4/5v5. when i play BTB against someone of similar basic skills as me, i get owned in big team because i don't really like it, i don't play it as much, i don't know the maps as well, i don't use vehicles, and i don't like the style of play.
turn the tables and if i play 4v4 against someone of similar skill that usually plays BTB, then i'll probably put a hurting on them in the smaller play lists.
Either way, just make the ranks visible. Let us know how close we are to getting the next rank or how close we are from losing our current rank we are.
what do you mean we don't get waypoints for teammates? We have arrows and names above heads in H4. Or are you only talking about no "X" on death? That would be nice to be back, but as weapons despawn quickly it's less important.
as far as the "weapon spawn bounce" - that wasn't an intended thing, I'm sure. You can't fault a company for not keeping in every unintended feature in their game. Eventually it would break a future game if they had to do that, or it would just make every game the same.
No, I am meaning that you cannot see your teammate across the map teamshooting unless you happen to be looking at them. In previous iterations their waypoint would be yellow if in a fight. Now you don't know unless you are looking at them and now it turns purple. They changed a major mechanic of their waypoint system. The colors blend with several of the games environments. It's pretty bad. I also liked seeing the x to know where a teammate died, that way I could go and cleanup if necessary. You can see what I mean if you youtube a H3/Reach/H4 montage. You can see where your teammates are much better, and also know if they are in a firefight without them even communicating. You cannot tell this unless you are right next to them in H4.
for the bolded part, madden does this, as does CoD. This was a great feature that has been removed, and IMO what really set this game apart. I could tell where my teammates were without them communicating.
I fully agree.
the bolded part is not talking about seeing teammates - it's talking about weapon spawn bounce. That can break a game if it's unintended. Sure in Halo 2/3 people worked around it and adapted. But if you want a developer to fine tune a game and then have to also work in the fact that a grenade can knock a weapon to you (for instance, the Epitaph rockets), then it could be near impossible. I doubt weapon bouncing was intended - it just ended up that way due to the physics engine at the time.
I see, but with the removal of timed weapons; several aspects of the game that made it great are now gone; including bouncing weapons.
I agree with the intended, timed weapon part. I don't agree that bouncing weapons is a good thing.
A lot of people don't agree with technical things that people learned. Nade throwing, weapon bouncing, button combos. I am not necessarily trying to open Pandora's box by mentioning button combos, but it was something that had to be learned. Even once you learned a combo you had to be able to do it under pressure in a game. People hated on that also. The irony of it is now you have one of the easiest combos as a tactical upgrade in Halo 4 with the fast reload. People used it all the time and now it is part of the game. No one says a thing now. Not being able to see a dead teammates X is a big item to be missing in my opinion. With the waypoint in the past you could always tell usually if your teammate was in a shoot out or was mowed down by something.
I swear I still see the flashing name if someone is in a shootout.
Button combos were an unintended glitch. They fixed the glitch. Just because some people liked the glitch doesn't mean it should be a part of future games. Etc.