Boltshot Statistics - Do they support your impressions?
#1
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:38
Boltshot Statistics - Do they support your impressions?
I was reading a thread on HBO where the Boltshot was being called out for being overpowered. Louis Wu simply went into the stats for those complaining and added up the numbers. The results pretty much cut the legs out from under the argument.
Just for the heck of it, if you really care about this issue, check your game stats. You may be surprised how little you get killed by the Boltshot and how little it compares with the other weapons, which don't get your hate. I've already checked a few peoples stats so I am wondering why they hate the Boltshot so much?
I think the Boltshot is getting an unwarranted rough ride. I can't pretend to be an expert on it though since I have very few games in MM. I know in customs, it isn't an issue.
Completely full of shit. It isn't and never was a question of how often you got killed by it. It's a matter of how it fits into the game sandbox and how/why those kills are coming about. If that's their official line on it, color me sharoly disappointed, especially given the amount of care they clearly had when creating the sandbox. Either that or they/he is just simply espousing a different way of playing the game, a way that I find slow and campy. Show me some actual data or some actual tests or some actual anything-that's-interesting that mean something or that can at least refute this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/14vbsi/an_analysis_of_the_boltshot...
Addendum: if you're playing Big Team, you better not get smoked by the Boltshot more. shouldn't your ass have a power weapon or one of the many vehicles spawning constantly? If you're curious, here's the breakdown for me (because now I'm suddenly curious).
Slayer: 110 kills, 104 deaths
CTF: 44 kills, 36 deaths
Oddball: 26 kills, 8 deaths
KOTH: 1 kill, 6 deaths
Dominion: 33 kills, 30 deaths
Regicide: 11 kills, 9 deaths
Total: 225 kills, 193 deaths
I don't know what this proves/disproves, though.
Edited to add: you didn't quite put in the context from Louis Wu. Here's what he actually said -
I'm not sure I buy this argument. Yes, the boltshot plays a bigger role when you compare it to close-quarter weapons alone... but so what?
EVERY close-quarter weapon plays a bigger role when you make the pool of weapons you're considering smaller. That's just math.
It's still, at the end of the day, only accounting for a small number of the interactions you're having.
I won't argue for a second that it's not the most powerful sidearm (though I don't use it, because I like having a plasma pistol when I'm playing on vehicle maps, or Firepower and an AR when I need a decent close-quarters weapon) - I'm just saying that the numbers don't back up the hate it gets. I guess it boils down (for most people) to "it's not fair" - and that's okay. I only brought up the numbers because I find that for ME, sometimes looking at the bigger picture helps me realize I've been giving too much power to something that bugs me... and recognizing how big a REAL role it plays in my life helps me push it back into place.
If that doesn't work for other people (or if they don't WANT to make it work that way), that's fine.
Personally, I think it'll probably get nerfed when the TU rolls around, so the angst will fade (at least from the people who don't LIKE the boltshot - there'll be new angst from those who love it ;) ).
Source: http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1171375
He seems to be "saying why all the hate" when the numbers don't support it? He's not saying everyone should now carry a Boltshot. The stats seem to bear out, that in spite of everyone having the capability to carry a Boltshot, few do and if they do, their success rate is quite low. Sure, there will be exceptions.
So why all the hate? Is it because people take getting killed by it personal, because it really is right in your face. Or is it some other reason? Is it because a jack in the box camper gets the drop on you? Is it the sound it makes? Is it just a symptom of people being cranky at 343i and group-think has latched on to a common foe.
I have tried the Boltshot out and it just doesn't fit my capabilities. My timing doesn't match it's characteristics. Maybe this is true for a lot of people.
I'm not advocating that it isn't a power weapon. I'm just saying the Boltshot has had the potential to become a pervasive killer in the sandbox like the DMR and has not really caught on in any meaningful way as far as the stats seem to point out.
It's not like Scorpions or Rocket launchers that really are overpowered while in use but you rarely get your hands on them.
Again, why hate for what doesn't kill you?
You're still not looking at this properly. The Boltshot is the only secondary I use. In non-ginormous maps, that's pretty much the only secondary to use. If you're spending your time playing huge maps with weapons, you're not going to see the problem because you're not around it. The shotgun has a little more range than the Boltshot. The Scattergun fires a little more rapidly and its shots ricochet. The problem is that the Boltshot is a starting loadout weapon, and the other two are pickups. That's like saying that the SAW wouldn't be overpowered if it were a loadout weapon. There's no reason to conflate the fact that you can either charge it or shoot bullets from it. If anything, that's a data point in its usability in its favor.
The money quote, in the stuff I linked, is the very last sentence, quoted from someone else, cope-and-pasted here for you:
No loadout weapon should be more powerful than a damn power weapon in its specialised field.
The sampling I did, rathering sparingly actually, was on the smaller maps in exception to the bigger maps. People shouldn't worry about death by Boltshot. It's effect on the battle is barely a discussion point. Yet people are hating on it.
BTW, are you disagreeing with the reddit posted results?
I'm done for the night, past midnight already. See you tomorrow. :)
No, I don't dispute the Reddit findings at all. I just find it interesting that, when presented with actual data, you default back to anecdotal evidence (I don't get killed by it often) to refute it. This, from someone who thinks that there's real value to be had in unique users.
I don't disagree with the statistical measurements of the reddit tests though I'd like to see someone confirm them. Used perfectly the Boltshot is more powerful than the Shotgun. Can it be used perfectly by the majority? If the most powerful CQC weapon in a sandbox is ignored by the masses, where is the problem?
I questioned your agreement of the reddit tests because you said
. The reddit report states the opposite or am I missing something?Remember, I didn't start the discussion on the point of whether or not it is over powered. That was the HBO discussion. I wanted people to examine why they hate the weapon and support that hate with a review of their own statistics.
Derp.
We know why we hate the weapon already. We've been telling you why we hate it for a long time now. Nothing has changed.
I looked at that reddit arcticle. If correct, it's interesting and shows kills by measured distance. It should be accurate.
I can only refute those stats prove it is more powerful as a sandbox weapon than the Shotgun. They don't. The test can't account for ease of use. The shotgun has only one firing mode. Instant on trigger pull. The Boltshot has three firing modes. Charge and release, charge and auto-release and a tricky semi-auto single shot.
The boltshot is a bitch weapon. Someone has to say it. It's a one shot kill and sucks donkey balls.
A default weapon should not have the effective range to kill that this does in one shot. I've been up on people with scattershot and lived, yet a boltshot can hit me from 4 paces away and I die.
It needs nerfed or removed for balance. Perhaps making a louder charging noise could be one such fix.
A louder charging noise/you get out of camo when you're charging it/ range reduction/ more consistency with the particles/etc.
the last bolded sentance you have is a big portion of it. I am willing to bet (and agree with) the main frustration is a combination of things.
1. it is not a ord drop weapon or a weapon just placed on the map, so a significant portion of players use it in MM and equipe it. So if you play primarily non btb maps, imagine running into people using it, a lot.
2. You have a good portion of users that equipe it as a secondary weapon and use active camo. They then sit behind cover (crate, rockt, pillar, etc.) and wait for someone to run by..Not that they were engauged in a fight, ran away and hid waiting for the chasing enemy to walk by. They sit there as their primary tactic. Is it a significant amount of players that do it, maybe not a huge percent of the entire playing population, but I have yet to play a odjective game in the past month without someone doing it and either camping by the objective and/or entrance to their base.
3. Now, lets say said Captain Bolt Shot has host or your connection to the host is wanky, the range is crazy long, extended enough that you want to start punching puppies.
Again if you only play btb or large parties that play very little of the smaller maps, this will not be an overall issue, mainly because in MM btb does not do objective...yet.
If they nerf it, that would be groovy. But enough people have the same opinion that it is OP that Louis Wu took the time to at least investigate it. You can almost visit any Halo forum and see threads dedicated to the rage it causes. Being able to carry a shotty as secondary everytime you spawn takes a little too much away from the game play.
Finding rage in Halo forums is like finding women's underwear on BC Kinetic.
While occasionally engaging it happens far too often to have any meaning beyond the fact that BC loves teh cock.
I'm in the camp of the boltshot sucks. Although I understand Louis' arguement (I didn't read, but I understand the stats portion), here's the problems Deep.
1. I get that you don't get killed by it often. But it's not the amount you get killed by it, it's how often you get killed by it versus other secondary weapons. And how often you get killed by it because the guy destroys your shields from far away and then pulls out his main weapon to finish the kill.
2. In my gameplay, I have been killed with a boltshot while I have had a sword, shotgun, and scattershot. Note, I have also had a guy kill me in a ghost (note, not just kill me, but destroy the ghost outright) with 2 charged shots.
3. It utterly destroys the gameplay of abandon. Get 4 guys camping with boltshots top mid and the lead and you can't do anything about it really.
4. The reticule, I think, is bigger than any other weapon in the game. You don't even have to come close to hit someone.
I understand that you don't play with it because it doesn't fit into your style. I don't play with it much because I think it's a bullshit weapon and I feel like it cheapens the game when I can kill a guy without even trying with a secondary weapon. But, there are alot of people that will use the thing and get the timing down perfectly and playing those guys is a nightmare.
Finally, I'll go back to H2. The noob combo was way overpowered with the homing of the charged plasma pistol You could never see that in the stats, but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.
That is, unless they have stealth. If their game is predicated on the fact that they can camp a corner, especially corners where they're not suppsoed to be, then they're going to probably choose stealth because they know that PV betrays them.
I'm not surprised at all. I find the Boltshot much more distressing than the DMR. I get the arguments about the DMR, and I'm not against slightly nerfing it/buffing the other rifles, but it's the chaos up close that irks me.
Statistics are meaningless to me. I played several games today, and the majority of them were against teams with at least two bitchfists. If 4 out of 5 games are spent with my whole team yelling "FUCKING CAMPING BOLT SHOT WHORES!" then the bolt shot is a problem. If you can't turn a corner without a bolt shot bitch being there, it's a problem. Shotgun isn't a load out option, there are no BXR type button glitches, there should be no bolt shots in loadouts. The ONLY good thing is most bitchfists are too stupid to move around, and camp in the same spot after they kill you. It feels great to stick one in the face. If other one shot kill weapons aren't allowed in load outs, this piece of shit shouldn't be either.
Nice work admin and your debbie downer logic.
What if, all of the death stats from all of the players on all of the smallish maps showed the Boltshot is not a significant value in comparison to other weapons? Keep in mind anyone can equip it anytime as opposed to the weapons officially labeled as power weapons. Check out your stats. don't go by memory.
I think the "what if" may have a good chance of being true. I hope someone comes up with that value on a stats site.
LB, Louis Wu did the study because he didn't understand the need for all of the hate rhetoric. The hate wasn't matching up with what was happening in game for him and for those complaining.
I understand people don't like the tactics of many Boltshot wielders but so what? I don't like that good shooters can sweep back and forth while consistently dinging me with the DMR or BR. Should I hate the ability to do that and ask for lateral movement to be reduced while shooting? Of course not because it is part of what makes Halo interesting. If everyone camped with the Boltshot, Halo would be boring and would need to be fixed but apparently that isn't the case.
Ghost92, Louis Wu studied someones stats for Boltshot vs other weapons and again there wasn't a reason to see the weapon as a problem. As for four people on Abandon at top mid, I expect it would be an interesting challenge to overcome as well as annoying.
Here are some scenarios. 343i listens to the OP complaints and nerfs the Boltshot. 343i listens to the Ordnance vs secondary complaints and makes it an Ordnance weapon or power weapon drop. 343i removes the weapon altogether. So with the Boltshot having an even lesser effect on the battle than it now does, what are people going to hate? Does going down this road lead us right back to the limited gun scenarios of MLG's past? I think it does. I think, if the Boltshot is one of your biggest hates and you hardly ever die from it, shouldn't you leave well enough alone?
What "study"? He made a simple observation.
The limited gun scenarios of the MLG past is because there were only a few guns worth using. The others' niches were too limited or didn't play well with the scheme of everything else. That's on Bungie's playtesting and balancing. I'm all for limiting the sandbox if the sandbox is littered with cat turds. By your rationale, if the Boltshot disappeared tomorrow, you'd personally see zero impact from that decision in your games, and you'd still be against it because they're taking a gun out of the sandbox.
Also, a lot of this could have been avoided/fixed/identified with a public beta. Yes, it's time to keep the beat on that drum, because that's an important lesson to learn from all of this.
I think the point may be being missed here. It's not that people are dying a lot (in this thread at least) from the bolt shot. I'm not. It's that noobs get wind of a cheap way to kill and they latch on - therefore making matchmaking full of creeping corner camping noobs, and it changes the game from a shootout to a campfest inside. This makes the game slow and not enjoyable, therefore changing it entirely.
Again, that's a simple view of the world. The most played variant is Big Team. You'll see more kill and assist numbers there because of the vehicles, because of the higher scores, because of the plethora of power weapons. Lastly, please stop throwing your hands up, saying that you don't know the answer, or even the question, or anything else. You don't play Halo enough. You don't play enough Matchmaking. You don't play enough 4v4 slayer. We get it: you love Halo, but you don't play the game a whole lot. Maybe you're not most qualified to make statements on how the game is.
And Deep..I love ya, but you're basically saying "I don't see what the big deal is...but I know nothing about this subject except a few stats." It most certainly changes the pace of the game, and how we play it. I'm not saying "omg all my deaths are bolt shot omg we always get owned by bolt shot kids"...I'm saying it's annoying as hell, it changes the game, it's LAME, and it pisses me (and most of my friends) off. It makes a fun game BORING and slow.
Would buffing the shotgun and scattershot be an acceptable alternative to nerfing the boltshot? You really can't nerf it as far as I can tell without rendering it completely useless. My argument is, making it a two shot kill makes it a shitty plasma pistol that can't lock on and has no range. Deep-If anything happens to the boltshot because of fan complaints, the DMR would have to be next on the chopping block. If you check out the Waypoint forums, if people aren't complaining about the boltshot, they're bitching about the DMR.
No. Scattergun on host has a greatly improved range. The shotgun already has a pretty solid range, and I'm okay with that, you know, because it's a power weapon.
Well then if you think the boltshot is not OP, then based on the test they might as well let everyone equipe a shottie or scattergun. The stats overall as far as ability to kill are simular when you factor in rounds, distance to kill, fire rate, etc. Does anyone think would be a good idea?
Adjustments to the game are to be expected and are a usual occurance. Buffing/nerfing elements of a game happen all the time. It does not matter if it is an RPGs, MMOs, FPS. Should they not fix glitches in the game that give an added advanted to people that know how to use them? It is not like we are asking 343 to close it doors because the created the boltshot. But an adjustment is needed in either nerfing it or making it less availible.
In theory 343 claims they are listening to people and will make adjustments if requests are reasonable and enough people are making them. But the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.