FWD RWD let the fun begin. Series coming soon.
FWD RWD let the fun begin. Series coming soon.
You know I think I have finally got this FWD RWD thing...I am not a car nut, I don't drive a car because it is "fun" to drive. I like to race, don't care what car it is as long as I can get it round a track as fast as I can and have a great race. I like to drive smooth, I like all wheels on the track and going in the same direction so I can concentrate on the car in front...Stick me a a great FWD car I can compete, I can enjoy racing with others...RWD I struggle I am not a natural RWD kinda dude, the odd one I enjoy, the Healy for example. There is a Ford I pull out in R1 I think on track night. Muscle cars I dont like, never will, not my cup of tea...though the V8's in rFactor are fun...maybe the different physics come into play here I don't know.
But from what I see and read here, some of us drive cars that are bitches just for the fun of it, these tend to be be more experienced but there are mid runners who do this too. Others look for cars that are easier to handle.
Anyway the floor is open, not for a one is better than the other. Just a why, what, and where kind of thing.
Yeah but this is 2O4F we can open these cans without folk throwing their toys out the pram
I know it should make sense back wheels pushing front wheels steering, but...
Knight,
Ah the old Fwd vs RWD debate...
Bit like Blondes and Brunettes, we all have our favorite but I know that those who favor FWD are just kidding themselves that what they are experiencing is driving when it is actually just one dimensional, like Scalextrics....
To be able to change the attitude of the car by 3 methods as opposed to the one brings a whole new dimension, and admittedly frustration, to the art of driving not just n game but in RL. There are exception, the Honda R's and the Clio sport are good fun but on the whole FWD is just...well...dull.
Racing is not just about going fast. it is about conquering an inanimate object and demanding that it does your bidding. I don't care if I come first last or somewhere in between. I get my kicks from pushing a car to and beyond its limits, preferably in something that was not originally designed to go that fast or stop that well.
Where Forza differs from the real world is that there are no consequences. Where you might consider taking a slightly slower entry point or staying off the gas for a few seconds longer in RL due to the cost of repair, your mortality etc in game you can just push and push and push. Hit the wall? no real biggie, Roll and destroy the car? No damage done.
Actually reading that back it makes me realise why my career was expensive rather than memorable... and that I actually like Brunettes and Blondes. And Red Heads....
P.
See I couldn't disagree more, you can lose it just as easy in a FWD if you push too hard, under steer I can handle, over steer not so much. Maybe because I drive FWD in real life it is instinctive, all my reactions are tuned to FWD. Another way our thinking differs is in our definition of racing, for me it is about competing with people, in todays race I kept someone behind me the entire race not by pushing to my limit, but by driving within my limits, not making mistakes and definitely not by asking more of the car than it will give me. For me a great race. The previous one I was out on my own at the back pushing like mad to get onto terms with those up the road...made mistakes, pushed too hard and dropped even further back...the point is i got bored, with no other human there was no race, I was just driving.
It's horses for courses, and I am not saying one is better than the other. It is not about that. I think that is telling that in the world of motor sport it is drivers I follow not manufacturers
Oh and I think most, if not all Skalextrics are rear wheel drive
Knight,
You are indeed correct that Scalextrics are RWD, my point was that they are one not multi dimensional. In hindsight not the best of analogies but it was early in the morning....
Once you 'get' RWD everything else just feels...wrong. Karting is seen as the training ground for future stars and, last time I looked, they were all rwd. Why? Balance.
By balance I mean that you can coordinate throttle input to steering to braking and make the 'vehicle' do pretty much what you want once you have it even half mastered. Admitted with fwd you can achieve probably 70-80% of this balance but when you really need that additional input it can all go horribly wrong.
To 'get it' in the real world treat yourself to a day karting...in the rain...on slicks...
It does all come down to circumstance though as you correctly pointed out.
Many years ago I was doing a charity event at Castle Combe at which there were a whole host of super cars in which people paid to have 'hot laps' (read be scared sh*tless). In the morning it pissed down and the Scooby boys were running rings around everyone, properly hooning it up and talking big in the pits.
After lunch the sun came out and the track dried out really quickly. Amazingly they were not talking so big come tea time as they got absolutely crushed in the dry as we were driving around them and under them as they understeered off into the undergrowth...
Horses for courses.
Not sure if that actually gets over what I was trying to say but the bottom line is fwd is good up to a point after which it is fairly pointless.
On another note, I tried to drive the Mustangs with the wheel and failed miserably. Went back to a controller and picked up 4 seconds....
P.
Most newcommers tot he game prefer FWD and AWD because they are far more forgiving. I can hammer the gas on a fwd out of a corner for it to only push straight, i can bang down the gears on the way in and not worry about shiftlock so much, if it does it'll push. However, its not as easy as people make out, its just forgiving. In order to go fast in FWD your lines must be much smoother and often a different angle of attack from RWD. Less rewarding imho.
RWD is less forgiving but more rewarding, the ability to balance a car using the throttle alone is quite an art. People who often cant feel a car tend to hate this and will often find themselves loosing control on the exit. Rwd requires a very smooth approach when askign the car to do some thing, but it generally is a faster set up as the grip for turning and power are seperate. in my mind there is nothing better than hooking up a rwd on corner exit and getting that back end squirming.
Its all part of the process, seen this many times before.
LOL shave off that chest hair at once and learn that wheel.
I have been Karting, rain and sun, and was pretty good at it. Real world is not Forza, and in that world RWD may well be king. But the point here is fun, my fun is in competing with other drivers, the best fun I have had to date is the STCC in a front wheel drive, not just the races I won, indeed the most intense one I came third I think after having spent half the race keeping sWhite at bay. Talk about a race, talk about pushing, talk about being on the edge, talk about anything you like, it was all there. Every series other than that is dominated by RWD and I'm a fool to myself going over to GBR where the same is true, though like I say I seem to find RWD easier in rFactor...or if not easier somehow more...Oh I don't know LOL
RWD is not the be all and end all of racing, I think most of my problem is RWD is seat of the pants, you feel with your body before any other sense what the car is doing. This is totally lacking for most of us with sim racing. Oh for a hydraulic rig. Anyway I would love to see more FWD options in mixed racing, Mustang versus Mustang is Hobsons choice for me. Oh it's my choice I know, don't have to enter...But hey no racing is no fun at all. I did try the idea of FWD for my next series, your response was I don't want to come and play then. Now mate that's not fair, I come and play in your playground, why this resistance to playing in mine? It's only a game
Knight,
You have shamed me....
I will always particiapte in any series you run, even if it was unicycle racing at a hill climb....
My loathing of fwd stems from playing in the lobbies where the Smarts and Sparks drive off into the distance because all you have to do is keep your foot buried and turn the wheel at the appropriate time. No skill but heaven forbid that I use a 'leader board' car to beat them at their own game or better still take an off brand car and destroy them..tee hee...
It is only a game and you are right it is all seat of the pants which is why my wife has a very embarrasing video of me leaning so far over whilst cornering that I feel off my chair...
To sort of bring my comments to a close I also race in an historic BTCC series where I have the Volvo 850 as my weapon of choice. I hate it. FWD bollox. I would quit the series but that is not who I am so I get lapped and create a mobile chicane. The Mustang on the other hand to me is a pure joy once you understand that the steering is all on the throttle, with the Volvo I just dont know how to make it go around corners!
Now what about some Old Beetle vs New Beetle action as mentioned on the other thread? something for everyone!
P.
Not really sure there's a lot to debate here. AWD, FWD or RWD can all be great fun to race. If it's simply a scale of difficulty then most to least difficult to drive is RWD, FWD, AWD.
Everyone is going to have certain types of cars that they simply don't like, and that they don't like them enough that driving them is not fun. Personally I don't like the trucks/SUV's, and would rather skip any event where they are featured. I'd also rather skip the ovals. Unless things have changed, you'll be hard pressed to get Cotter into the R class cars because they require too much concentration to be fun. I know Tourni struggles to find any joy in cars that have excessive understeer, and that's one of the hallmarks of FWD cars.
You don't like RWD because you feel less competative in them. Fair enough, but when they do click for you you're going to wonder what all the fuss was about. I say this as someone who struggled very badly with RWD cars in the beginning, and they didn't really click for me for about 1.5 years. I'm not a fast learner, but I'm persistent
Paps is quite stubbornly suggesting they are incompatible, such that there may not be a class where they will meet satisfactorily, and from my experience around him, he's probably right, damn it.
Of course, I'd love it if he were wrong.
And there's always multiclass beetle racing, no?
Mr School,
I seem to be having a lot of success with my C class beetle, not a leader board car but pretty damn good all the same. Will have to have a look at your tune on the Plastic Beetle and see what it goes like to have a comparison.
Now why cant we just slip in the GT1 engine into the 63 and be done with it....
P.
.
Well, they don't have to be competitive in pubs, just in a head to head. I have a b class old cool beetle but it's handling isn't quite so good...yet. I dunno if the newschool beetle is any good in C, but I seem to remember Pickle having one higher up than that, in B or A even maybe. So I will have a look see.
I like 'em all.
FWD up to about B class. Above that, a lot of the cars start getting past the available grip to potential speed ratio to be fun to drive. I find it entertaining to be banging door handles w/ RWD cars that were expecting to leave me in the dust.
AWD, B class and above. Anything lower and you can't get enough power to liven them up at all. My least favorite of the 3 configurations.
RWD, across the board. They are my bread and butter...always have been, even in FM3 where the thing to do was throw an AWD conversion on everything. I find them personally to be the most rewarding to drive. But then I've also had a long term love affair w/ Mustangs & Porsches (as well as my VWs).
LOL yeah those Lobbies will mess with your head, I lean too but that comes from being an old biker. Was running this VW tune of yours Dawg and it is fine, I was running with some non clan mates from my old Lobby days and whooped their ass. See no reason why the new one can't be made to compete in the same class but then I know SFA about the black art.
Yes on the class thing, in A FWD can only realy compete with like...After the Healy Back in Time series we will look at a mixed event FWD and RWD in well matched cars...Fun for all
Knight,
Was that the E or C class one so I know which one to send over later.
I did put one in the garage but not sure if it was the good one or not, sorry.
P.
E class I think and there is a B class in the Garage that also runs well...in fact I won with that one too....either my old mates are getting worse or...
Imjimee and I ran C class Beetles, both drives last night on multiple tracks and while I got the better of him more than not in the RWD, he was competitive for the most part. I think a little tinkering and these two cars could run each other around the C class. I ran Cyberdawgs Beetle (Nice Paint) in the clubhouse BTW, Jimmy was running his own car.
But the long and short of it is, I think it's doable.
BTW Dawg, I gotta have that tune...
Well if Touni doesn't go for it I think I may, after the Back in Time series...I have been thinking of how to keep both camps happy, though to be honest with the VW it sticks like glue so not really a full RWD experience...but a basket full of fun
Mr School,
I have two versions of that tune, one na and a turbo version. Both have the same HP but the na one is lighter and the Turbo has a ton more torque so is ideal for the Alps but both still need a little fettling. Just shortened the gearing on the na version which has made it a little more of a handful but knocked 1.5 seconds off the lap time at the twin rings circuit and scared the living daylights out of the chap in the Spark. Will send over both tunes for you to play with, feel free to adjust to suit as I am sure there is more in both of them. Coming from you the thumbs up on the paint is a real compliment! I modelled it on the Dan Gurney EMPI beetle that competed in the 63 Nassau events, not finished but getting there!
P
Mr Dawg,
I am eagerly awaiting your delivery of beetle tune,
still loving the paint job,
and have made it my job in life to scare the pee outta every Spark I can...
Excellent if you two keep this up we have our next series in the bag.
Mr Jimmee,
Eagerly awaiting your attendance on tuning comp of the FWD unit. You show me yours, I'll show you mine!
Mr School,
Tunes sent along with paint.
Fiddled around with the tune some more and... it sort of works but needs a little fine tuning. Ran a 1.39 around silverstone in the lobbys so it is nearly there...
Let me know what you think and lets set up a play date to try the various tunes out.
P.
Mr Dawg, Mrs OldSchool (did I get it wrong?)
Would you guys mind taking your subliminal homophobic messages into a PM conversation please and thank you. It's giving Parcells images he don't want to have.
Serenity now.
If Parcells is disturbed reading our discourse, Parcells should look the other way...if he can...
We should drag Jimmee into this as he's got a good FWD to bring to the table, and I'm horrible on Silverstone so I couldn't compare anything reliably there. I ran a 1.15 at Hock short RWD and a 1.17 FWD, but again, I'm a RWD driver...
If we could get an admittedly biased FWD driver (Knight?) to try this pair and see what happens, it may help the data pool.
Yes sure, just send me the tunes/cars and I give them a run...and methinks Parcells doth protest too much...
Mr School,
Of the 3 tunes which did you prefer and I will send this to knight or you can do it, not precious.
I think the best track to test this tune on is the Twins rings (not the EUSL one but the middle one) as there are no really long straights but a good mixture of various bends etc and i absolutley nailed it around here in a recent lobby bought, killing the Spark that was being piloted by some troll.
P.
knight,
Just logged in and sent them all to you, let me know what you prefer.
Not saying they are perfect by the way as I am sure they need a little fettling.
Parcells, if you want to take my writings as Homoerotic porn then either a) you have far too much time on your hands or b) my talents are wasted.
You decide...
P.
Paul any chance i can have the tunes plz