I don't getthe Starcraft followig either - it's terribly boring to watch IMHO. Yes, I said boring again. My "MLG is boring" comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek because it is such a subjective trem. My previous post said that not everyone can agree what "good" setings are, and now we have a whole thread proviong my point. Personally I like BTB objective games and find small 4v4 MLG type setting boring to play and watch. Does that make either right or wrong? No - just different. But like I said, offering more customization fractures the community; solidifying the settings will always agner some part of the community.
I do agree that competitive halo is good for the community and keeps them playing and interested. Professional sports are popular, IMO, at least a good deal because people can pick up a ball and play them. It has to do with the ability to relate to the experience. I completely agree that as MLG becomes less like community halo, it is bad for both.
The interesting crux of the arguement is whose fault is it. I'm going to argue that it's everyones.
Reach, as a base game, is not bad. Sure, the MLG argue that bloom makes the game random. Does it add a level of randomness? Sure it does, but it doesn't make the game random. Random suggests that I could flip a coin in any DMR battle to see who the winner is. That's just not true. I know what my skill level is. If I play someone who has less skill, I will win more than 50% of the time. I'll win 80-90% or even more depending on the skill gap. I may not ever win 100% of the time, but that's life. Bloom is not a problem.
That being said, the problem with Reach is that it is too slow. I agree kill times are too slow, character speed is too slow, jump height is too little, and the addition of sprint with the slow kill times makes the game even slower. MLG changes in this area make the game better.
You know, one of the good things in H3 was MLG made changes and bungie followed to a certain extent. Remember initial setup of narrows? No, you don't. It was terrible and MLG moving weapons made it better. The narrows we played in TS was the same Narrows we played in MLG. MLG hated equipment and for the most part, equipment disappeared from maps. MLG made some good changes to the game and Bungie, in their wisdom evaluated the changes and made the ones that made sense.
Then you get to Reach and MLG goes overboard and Bungie just didn't care anymore. There is not one map in the MLG playlist that is anywhere close to the same map in TS. Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring. They "fixed" zealot by taking out the space area. The map actually plays better with a soft kill zone because it allows for better map movement. Countdown is bad in vanilla form because it promotes camping. The shotgun and sword make you want to camp and there is no reason to control any part of the map. Putting rockets outside on the platform, like MLG does, is a better design.
I think Reach could have been just as big as H3. Just like any marriage, when the partners stop listening to each other and just do their own thing, it all goes into the shitter.
Does it add a level of randomness? Sure it does, but it doesn't make the game random. Random suggests that I could flip a coin in any DMR battle to see who the winner is. That's just not true. I know what my skill level is. If I play someone who has less skill, I will win more than 50% of the time. I'll win 80-90% or even more depending on the skill gap. I may not ever win 100% of the time, but that's life. Bloom is not a problem.
Bloom is a problem when you don't know how fast to pace your shots. Distance is a factor, but there are situations where the spammer is going to win simply because they're lucky, and the 1 on 1 DMR battle has become a coin flip. Recoil would have worked better...I think.
Ghost92 wrote:
That being said, the problem with Reach is that it is too slow. I agree kill times are too slow, character speed is too slow, jump height is too little, and the addition of sprint with the slow kill times makes the game even slower. MLG changes in this area make the game better.
Agree. 100% Sprint is unnecessary with a decent movement speed, like H1 or H2.
Ghost92 wrote:
Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
With regards to frame rate issues, it happens on more than just forge world maps.
Ghost92 wrote:
They "fixed" zealot by taking out the space area. The map actually plays better with a soft kill zone because it allows for better map movement.
I prefer Zealot without "space". It's used as a "quick out" too much. Zealot could use a power weapon, be it a sniper rifle or grenade launcher.
Ghost92 wrote:
Countdown is bad in vanilla form because it promotes camping. The shotgun and sword make you want to camp and there is no reason to control any part of the map..
Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
No rock that's true, but there's a ledge to the right of the tunnel entrance you can easily use. I prefer a rock though, I'm just saying it's there.
Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
No rock that's true, but there's a ledge to the right of the tunnel entrance you can easily use. I prefer a rock though, I'm just saying it's there.
True.
That ledge is no replacement for the rock, though. Isn't the ledge at red a different width than the ledge at blue?
Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
No rock that's true, but there's a ledge to the right of the tunnel entrance you can easily use. I prefer a rock though, I'm just saying it's there.
True.
That ledge is no replacement for the rock, though. Isn't the ledge at red a different width than the ledge at blue?
It's a pain in the ass jump, that's for sure. I can barely do it.
Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
No rock that's true, but there's a ledge to the right of the tunnel entrance you can easily use. I prefer a rock though, I'm just saying it's there.
True.
That ledge is no replacement for the rock, though. Isn't the ledge at red a different width than the ledge at blue?
It's a pain in the ass jump, that's for sure. I can barely do it.
Yes, it is! Kind of kills map/game flow when you cannot easily move from shotty to the hut without having to try the jump a few times.
I sometimes wonder if the opposition just sits and watches me fudge the jump over and over...
The BR was also pretty random in H3. There where plenty of times I beat better players pulling off a 4 shot that was pretty much luck. Aside from the first bullet the BR was random and that doesn't even take in the fact that shots didn't register alot.
I agree that faster move speed is better than sprint, but the maps really suck in MLG. Why could they not use Sanctury and Pit as inspiration instead of tring to bring back old maps. It really feels lazy to me that they went this route. I do think Bungie put to much stock into their Forge World, they where told it would work they should of listened and just made some quality maps instead of giving the community poor tools to make blah maps with framerate issues.
As far as my reason for somewhat wanting to not see MLG in H4 is that I think MLG has one of the worst communities in gaming. I do play MLG gametypes and enjoy them, but its frustrating see all the hate from the community. Very little in the way of postivity over there and those same people flood the Waypoint forum with the negative BS. Guess what Halo Reach isn't H2 or H3 get over it already.
MLG in H3, while tweaked, did not feel like a totally different game. Yes, bullet damage, shield recharge rate, movement speed, etc were tweaked, but you could easily jump between TS and MLG in H3. Well, I say "easily" meaning there is not a huge difference in how the game plays.
I did not play much MLG MM in H3 because I would get destroyed even at low ranks. However, I played in 4v4 League of "casual" players and we used the MLG maps and settings and had a blast! We did experiment during the "pre-season" with vehicle maps like Standoff and Valhalla, but always came back to the MLG versions being the most balanced for League play.
Ghost makes some very good points illustrating how Bungie utilized some of MLG's ideas into their own maps and settings. We must also consider that Bungie has the Halo community spoiled and 343i is seems to be taking it up a notch - at least with Reach.
I am just hoping that 343i does not keep up with "vanilla" and "TU" settings in H4. People will gripe no matter what but let's not have all of these playlists with such a wide assorment of settings. Consider how different TS and MLG play in Reach - they are two drastically different games. If the MLG playlist had better maps and a larger population, I would probably spend more time there - and if I had friends that wanted to play MLG.
I am just hoping that 343i does not keep up with "vanilla" and "TU" settings in H4. People will gripe no matter what but let's not have all of these playlists with such a wide assorment of settings. Consider how different TS and MLG play in Reach - they are two drastically different games. If the MLG playlist had better maps and a larger population, I would probably spend more time there - and if I had friends that wanted to play MLG.
I kind chuckled when I read this.
I am confident 343i has learned and is learning very valuable lessons from the Vanilla/TU wars. I have never seen such fighting in forums before. It even surpassed 2old2play's early days of conflict over BR spread, BXRRXL (whatever it was), MLG, competitive vs causal and map design.
I don't getthe Starcraft followig either - it's terribly boring to watch IMHO. Yes, I said boring again. My "MLG is boring" comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek because it is such a subjective trem. My previous post said that not everyone can agree what "good" setings are, and now we have a whole thread proviong my point. Personally I like BTB objective games and find small 4v4 MLG type setting boring to play and watch. Does that make either right or wrong? No - just different. But like I said, offering more customization fractures the community; solidifying the settings will always agner some part of the community.
I don't know what the solution is.
I do agree that competitive halo is good for the community and keeps them playing and interested. Professional sports are popular, IMO, at least a good deal because people can pick up a ball and play them. It has to do with the ability to relate to the experience. I completely agree that as MLG becomes less like community halo, it is bad for both.
The interesting crux of the arguement is whose fault is it. I'm going to argue that it's everyones.
Reach, as a base game, is not bad. Sure, the MLG argue that bloom makes the game random. Does it add a level of randomness? Sure it does, but it doesn't make the game random. Random suggests that I could flip a coin in any DMR battle to see who the winner is. That's just not true. I know what my skill level is. If I play someone who has less skill, I will win more than 50% of the time. I'll win 80-90% or even more depending on the skill gap. I may not ever win 100% of the time, but that's life. Bloom is not a problem.
That being said, the problem with Reach is that it is too slow. I agree kill times are too slow, character speed is too slow, jump height is too little, and the addition of sprint with the slow kill times makes the game even slower. MLG changes in this area make the game better.
You know, one of the good things in H3 was MLG made changes and bungie followed to a certain extent. Remember initial setup of narrows? No, you don't. It was terrible and MLG moving weapons made it better. The narrows we played in TS was the same Narrows we played in MLG. MLG hated equipment and for the most part, equipment disappeared from maps. MLG made some good changes to the game and Bungie, in their wisdom evaluated the changes and made the ones that made sense.
Then you get to Reach and MLG goes overboard and Bungie just didn't care anymore. There is not one map in the MLG playlist that is anywhere close to the same map in TS. Did Asylum really need to be remade? I don't think so. The main complaint was the sniper screen lag. MLG made a map that lags worse, and on top is gray and boring. They "fixed" zealot by taking out the space area. The map actually plays better with a soft kill zone because it allows for better map movement. Countdown is bad in vanilla form because it promotes camping. The shotgun and sword make you want to camp and there is no reason to control any part of the map. Putting rockets outside on the platform, like MLG does, is a better design.
I think Reach could have been just as big as H3. Just like any marriage, when the partners stop listening to each other and just do their own thing, it all goes into the shitter.
Bloom is a problem when you don't know how fast to pace your shots. Distance is a factor, but there are situations where the spammer is going to win simply because they're lucky, and the 1 on 1 DMR battle has become a coin flip. Recoil would have worked better...I think.
Agree. 100% Sprint is unnecessary with a decent movement speed, like H1 or H2.
The Bungie made version is pretty sloppy. Why isn't there a jump rock in front of the shotty tunnels?
With regards to frame rate issues, it happens on more than just forge world maps.
I prefer Zealot without "space". It's used as a "quick out" too much. Zealot could use a power weapon, be it a sniper rifle or grenade launcher.
[/quote]
No rock that's true, but there's a ledge to the right of the tunnel entrance you can easily use. I prefer a rock though, I'm just saying it's there.
True.
That ledge is no replacement for the rock, though. Isn't the ledge at red a different width than the ledge at blue?
Yes, it is! Kind of kills map/game flow when you cannot easily move from shotty to the hut without having to try the jump a few times.
I sometimes wonder if the opposition just sits and watches me fudge the jump over and over...
The BR was also pretty random in H3. There where plenty of times I beat better players pulling off a 4 shot that was pretty much luck. Aside from the first bullet the BR was random and that doesn't even take in the fact that shots didn't register alot.
I agree that faster move speed is better than sprint, but the maps really suck in MLG. Why could they not use Sanctury and Pit as inspiration instead of tring to bring back old maps. It really feels lazy to me that they went this route. I do think Bungie put to much stock into their Forge World, they where told it would work they should of listened and just made some quality maps instead of giving the community poor tools to make blah maps with framerate issues.
As far as my reason for somewhat wanting to not see MLG in H4 is that I think MLG has one of the worst communities in gaming. I do play MLG gametypes and enjoy them, but its frustrating see all the hate from the community. Very little in the way of postivity over there and those same people flood the Waypoint forum with the negative BS. Guess what Halo Reach isn't H2 or H3 get over it already.
MLG in H3, while tweaked, did not feel like a totally different game. Yes, bullet damage, shield recharge rate, movement speed, etc were tweaked, but you could easily jump between TS and MLG in H3. Well, I say "easily" meaning there is not a huge difference in how the game plays.
I did not play much MLG MM in H3 because I would get destroyed even at low ranks. However, I played in 4v4 League of "casual" players and we used the MLG maps and settings and had a blast! We did experiment during the "pre-season" with vehicle maps like Standoff and Valhalla, but always came back to the MLG versions being the most balanced for League play.
Ghost makes some very good points illustrating how Bungie utilized some of MLG's ideas into their own maps and settings. We must also consider that Bungie has the Halo community spoiled and 343i is seems to be taking it up a notch - at least with Reach.
I am just hoping that 343i does not keep up with "vanilla" and "TU" settings in H4. People will gripe no matter what but let's not have all of these playlists with such a wide assorment of settings. Consider how different TS and MLG play in Reach - they are two drastically different games. If the MLG playlist had better maps and a larger population, I would probably spend more time there - and if I had friends that wanted to play MLG.
I am confident 343i has learned and is learning very valuable lessons from the Vanilla/TU wars. I have never seen such fighting in forums before. It even surpassed 2old2play's early days of conflict over BR spread, BXRRXL (whatever it was), MLG, competitive vs causal and map design.
If they haven't, we'll know in 4-6 months.
Hell I miss the super bounces!
Yea, my point was that I think MLG could have tweaked the Bungie map and we'd have one consistent map in MM instead of 2.