Halo 5: Guardians Beta (12/29/14 - 1/18/15)

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#1 Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:59
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Halo 5: Guardians Beta (12/29/14 - 1/18/15)

update: starts 12/29/14

Fri, 06/20/2014 - 08:28
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w00t w00t I'll be there!  Going to pre-order The Master Chief Collection shortly.

Sat, 06/21/2014 - 23:14
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I'm hoping for a kinectless Xbox one/mcc bundle. 

Sun, 06/29/2014 - 13:03
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I definitely plan to be in this beta. Looking forward to the next generation of Halo gaming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 06/29/2014 - 19:53
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MCC pre-ordered.  That should put me in the beta.

Tue, 07/01/2014 - 19:12
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you get the beta regardless.  It's in the game.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 10:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_yZf7ATwE#t=59

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 10:35 (Reply to #7)
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Shadow wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_yZf7ATwE#t=59

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

 

What's it been, 9 years for them to figure out something we knew since Halo 3?  Good god, I can only get so erect.

 

http://i.imgur.com/g9G2Wvp.jpg

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 10:47 (Reply to #8)
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Three weeks of beta!?!  Nice.  Same start weapons, weapons on map, seven maps, unlocks that carry into the game!  Dang, I am in!

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 11:12 (Reply to #9)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Shadow wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_yZf7ATwE#t=59

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

 

What's it been, 9 years for them to figure out something we knew since Halo 3?  Good god, I can only get so erect.

 

http://i.imgur.com/g9G2Wvp.jpg

I think you're not so good with the maths.  Halo 3 was 2007 ;)

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 12:46 (Reply to #10)
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Shadow wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

Shadow wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_yZf7ATwE#t=59

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

 

What's it been, 9 years for them to figure out something we knew since Halo 3?  Good god, I can only get so erect.

 

http://i.imgur.com/g9G2Wvp.jpg

I think you're not so good with the maths.  Halo 3 was 2007 ;)

 

Total guess with the number of years.  That and only so much blood can go to the peen.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 11:40 (Reply to #11)
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Shadow wrote:

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

Small 4v4 maps, weapon control, map control, the word competitive sprinkled in.  Trying not to get my hopes up again.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 09:43 (Reply to #12)
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DCHaloJunkies wrote:

Shadow wrote:

Well I've been burned before but it sounds like they know what they are doing this time.

Small 4v4 maps, weapon control, map control, the word competitive sprinkled in.  Trying not to get my hopes up again.

 

Well, they are doing it a lot earlier in the cycle than with Halo 4.  With H4, they seemed to want to get it in the hands of skilled players about three weeks before release.  Maybe they're realizing their mistake, slowly but surely.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 10:32
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This whole 'thing' about getting input from competitve players is a bit too much back slapping between wannabes. No competitve players were involved with Halo CE and many of the aforementioned ilk think it was the best Halo ever. Never heard of any competitve groups being contacted for Halo 2 either. 

BTW, did you know that CE virtually had no spawning system?  Max Hoberman just said in an interview he designed it and the only thing used to infuence spawning were that certain objects blocked spawning. I.E. players, vehicles

He said spawning influencers were added for Halo 2.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 12:26 (Reply to #14)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

This whole 'thing' about getting input from competitve players is a bit too much back slapping between wannabes. No competitve players were involved with Halo CE and many of the aforementioned ilk think it was the best Halo ever. Never heard of any competitve groups being contacted for Halo 2 either. 

BTW, did you know that CE virtually had no spawning system?  Max Hoberman just said in an interview he designed it and the only thing used to infuence spawning were that certain objects blocked spawning. I.E. players, vehicles

He said spawning influencers were added for Halo 2.

 

Man, even when you might feel slighted, you really draw it out, don't you?

 

Yeah, I saw that too about the CE spawning system.  Random spawns.  That's what you get for the pre-Live landscape, though.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 13:45 (Reply to #15)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

This whole 'thing' about getting input from competitve players is a bit too much back slapping between wannabes. No competitve players were involved with Halo CE and many of the aforementioned ilk think it was the best Halo ever. Never heard of any competitve groups being contacted for Halo 2 either. 

BTW, did you know that CE virtually had no spawning system?  Max Hoberman just said in an interview he designed it and the only thing used to infuence spawning were that certain objects blocked spawning. I.E. players, vehicles

He said spawning influencers were added for Halo 2.

man, Deep gets salty when he thinks that there might be any focus on competition.  :P

Of course no competitive Halo players were involved with Halo CE....... because it didn't exist yet.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 14:26 (Reply to #16)
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Shadow wrote:

Of course no competitive Halo players were involved with Halo CE....... because it didn't exist yet.

Exactly my point.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 12:37 (Reply to #17)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Shadow wrote:

Of course no competitive Halo players were involved with Halo CE....... because it didn't exist yet.

Exactly my point.

Halo CE is the base.  There was no standard.  That's the only reason it's judged that way.

 

btw, Tristan dropping some KNOWLEDGE

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 13:48 (Reply to #18)
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bah humbug

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 14:32 (Reply to #19)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

This whole 'thing' about getting input from competitve players is a bit too much back slapping between wannabes. No competitve players were involved with Halo CE and many of the aforementioned ilk think it was the best Halo ever. Never heard of any competitve groups being contacted for Halo 2 either. 

BTW, did you know that CE virtually had no spawning system?  Max Hoberman just said in an interview he designed it and the only thing used to infuence spawning were that certain objects blocked spawning. I.E. players, vehicles

He said spawning influencers were added for Halo 2.

 

Oh ok I'll play.

1. Halo CE is considered the best halo ever by some competitive players.

2. Competitive players weren't involved in its creation.

3. Halo CE had random spawning.

==> Input from professional players will ruin Halo for casual players.

 

The pro gamers that 343 hired are subject matter experts.  I don't see why it'd hurt to get an opinion from them.  I think (hope) they'll help make the next Halos better games to all players.

Anyways I always liked the Halo franchise for fast paced action and Halo Reach and Halo 4 definitely departed from the formula.  So I'm crossing my fingers and hoping they deliver.

 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 16:29
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There's a simple explanation for why CE was a good competitive game even without pro input. Most of the bad decisions that have set the Halo series back have been Bungie/343's attempts to "fix" the fact that, on a level playing field, good players dominate bad players. For example, in CE, weapons spawned on fixed timers. Every 30 seconds on Hang 'em High, the sniper rifle spawned no matter what. Same for rockets, camo, etc. Players who learned the timings could use that to their advantage, which made for a fun strategic meta-game. (When both teams know the camo is coming up in 15 seconds, do you go for it, or use it as bait, etc.?) Bungie saw that and thought people shouldn't play that way, so in H2 they made the weapon respawn time depend on when the last empty one was dropped. They hoped this would fix people timing weapons, but all it did was make it so that only the team who had the weapon last would know when to expect the next one, which puts the team that's already losing at a further disadvantage. There are lots of other examples like this, basically of them trying to erase the meta-game of map control from how the game is played, culminating in Infinity Slayer with random ordnance drops and power ups as armor abilities that you spawn with and can use whenever.

CE was competitive simply because it was first. The weapons and OS/camo spawned in consistent, fair ways because Bungie didn't yet see the need to "fix" it. They didn't make the starting weapon a weak, point-blank spray gun (H2's SMG) because they didn't see the need to "fix" the fact that the CE starting weapon was so deadly in the hands of an accurate shooter. And so on.

By the way, CE's spawns aren't random. There are zones, i.e. if your teammate is standing within such-and-such bounds, you'll spawn next to him. I used to be friends with a guy who played on TDT (The Dream Team, the first dominant pro team before the Ogres came on the scene) and the spawns were so predictable for him that he could fire a rocket at a spawn point from across Hang 'em High and have the enemy spawn inside the explosion. Anyone who says they're random doesn't know what they're talking about. If someone can consistently predict spawns ahead of time, then by definition that's not random.

Every map also has certain spots where you can stand to get your teammate a random spawn. For example, on Hang 'em High if you stand at the base of the sniper structure, your teammate will get a random spawn. There are others that I can't remember. Players know these places and use them strategically; sometimes getting your teammate a split spawn can be advantageous (like if you're getting spawn trapped, or if you just want your partner to be able to flank off spawn). Halo-pro.com used to have diagrams of all the spawn zones as well as the specific places you can stand to get your partner a split spawn.

As far as Halo 2 goes, that game actually did have a lot of outside input. Not the 1.0 version that shipped, but the 1.1 update that everyone has such fond memories of. It came out later and was shaped by lots of real-world playing and feedback. Remember how it used to take like half a dozen melees to kill someone pre-update? That and many other things were changed after the game shipped and they had a bunch of feedback from people playing the game and telling them that six beatdowns was ridiculous.

Also, the default settings for H2 were terrible. Plasma Rifle spawns on Midship? H2's competitive qualities aren't because Bungie had such brilliant foresight. The default game was bad, but became pretty good with enough customization.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 16:42 (Reply to #21)
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Tristan wrote:
By the way, CE's spawns aren't random. There are zones, i.e. if your teammate is standing within such-and-such bounds, you'll spawn next to him. I used to be friends with a guy who played on TDT (The Dream Team, the first dominant pro team before the Ogres came on the scene) and the spawns were so predictable for him that he could fire a rocket at a spawn point from across Hang 'em High and have the enemy spawn inside the explosion. Anyone who says they're random doesn't know what they're talking about. If someone can consistently predict spawns ahead of time, then by definition that's not random.

So the guy who designed the spawning system is wrong? Well, I suppose he could be having faulty recollections or described it poorly.

I think I will take his word for now. If it proves to be wrong, fine. It was interesting first hand news to pass on. If I remember, I'll post a link to the video. Maybe I misunderstood it.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 16:57
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It wouldn't be the first time a Bungie employee has been wrong about their own game. I can't remember who it was, but I remember there was an MLG tournament back during H2 or H3 where some Bungie guys came to watch. One of them was telling one of the pros who had played a lot of Halo 1 that the spawns were random. The pro (I think it might have been Gandhi?) kept saying that he's been accurately predicting spawns for years and hence aren't random, but the guy wouldn't listen.

I know it sounds preposterous, especially to someone who doesn't like competitive players to begin with, that a Bungie employee wouldn't know if the spawns are random or not. There are only two explanations:

1. the spawns aren't random and the Bungie guy didn't know what he's talking about, or

2. the spawns are random and the pro didn't know what he's talking about.

Fortunately, this can be empircally tested. CE's spawn system has been extensively documented. If you think they're random, read the article, fire up a game, and test it for yourself.

Maybe he meant for 1v1 or free for all. For team games they're probably the most predictable in the series. I know that on maps like Prisoner, some of the strategy is deducing where Enemy #1 is standing based on where Enemy #2 spawned. That would be impossible with random spawns.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 17:59
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Okay, here is the video. I recommend you watch it all as it is very interesting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKP89UNBQQ#t=1688

The spawning conversation starts at ~28:05. I did in fact make a mistake in that Max Hoberman did not say 'he designed the CE spawn system. What he was saying in the video was that he designed the Halo 2 spawn system and was recounting how the CE spawn system worked. He was quite emphatic about it. He built on that CE system for halo 2. I suppose he would have known as much as anyone could about the CE spawn system since he added code to it for Halo 2. He created/designed the positive influencer system for nearby team mates in Halo 2. Extrapolating from that, none previously existed. It's debatable but no proof positive.

So, I haven't looked at your data though I'm fairly sure I've seen it before. My preliminary response is, anecdotal evidence based off systematic game play setups is going to give you repetive results. They can do this ad infinitum without actually knowing why a thing happens the way it always does. But I will try to go through the info you gave us, even though I am predisposed to not believe the conclusions.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 18:16
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Okay, I read the reddit stuff. No evidence was provided. It's a discussion piece for the most part. They described some of what they were doing but that's it. I believe they got results. I just don't believe what they presented proves their "bubble" case. If Max hadn't said anything, I would have taken their results as casual experimentation and probably sort of believed it.

The only sure way to know is to look at the spawning code. Surely a hacker has looked at it and decoded it?

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 10:06
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People can't look at the source code because it's not publicly available.

Here's your evidence: If you have two red players stand on a certain part of the map and you kill one of them over and over, he spawns next to his teammate on the same part of the map [i]every single time[/i]. Should they have made a video recording instead for evidence? I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to argue that such consistent spawn behavior is a random coincidence.

Max Hoberman was a User Interface designer for Halo 1 and had nothing to do with the game design itself or the multiplayer. It's possible he didn't understand the CE spawn system as well as he thought. He didn't "add code" to CE's spawn system. H2, like every Halo, was rewritten from scratch.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 10:39 (Reply to #26)
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Tristan wrote:

People can't look at the source code because it's not publicly available.

Here's your evidence: If you have two red players stand on a certain part of the map and you kill one of them over and over, he spawns next to his teammate on the same part of the map [i]every single time[/i]. Should they have made a video recording instead for evidence? I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to argue that such consistent spawn behavior is a random coincidence.

Max Hoberman was a User Interface designer for Halo 1 and had nothing to do with the game design itself or the multiplayer. It's possible he didn't understand the CE spawn system as well as he thought. He didn't "add code" to CE's spawn system. H2, like every Halo, was rewritten from scratch.

The radomizer in CE may not be as random as some may want think. Digital randomizers can be somewhat non-random and based on my ancient knowledge, the first value picked is often the same. Maybe CE suffers from the problem. I'm sure there are some programmers here that can confirm this.

I do not accept the results of uniformed players when a 'real' authority says, no bubble for spawning exists in CE. Players like those who made the article often create urban legends and people similar to them often readily believe them.

Bungie and 343i always reuse old code. No Halo engine since CE has ever been truly completely rewritten from scratch. Frank O'Connor, as recently as Halo4, said some of the original CE code was still there. Rebuild may be a btter description than rewritten.

I said I was wrong about what Max did for CE. What he did for Halo 2 was more impressive. You can choose to believe lay people over an authority but I will not.

When are you going to bring more to the discussion than l33t players er smarty and kno dem gamer stuff better?

Come back when you have something fucking better than shit pulled out of yours or somebody elses arse.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 12:42 (Reply to #27)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:
You can choose to believe lay people over an authority but I will not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 12:57 (Reply to #28)
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Shadow wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:
You can choose to believe lay people over an authority but I will not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit

That's dumb.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 14:06 (Reply to #29)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

The radomizer in CE may not be as random as some may want think. Digital randomizers can be somewhat non-random and based on my ancient knowledge, the first value picked is often the same. Maybe CE suffers from the problem. I'm sure there are some programmers here that can confirm this.

I used to be a programmer. While there is an academic discussion over what is the definition of true randomness vs. simulated randomness, I will tell you that simulated randomness is still pretty random, and having the player spawn next to his teammate 100x out of 100 is not a case of a not-quite-optimal randomness algorithm.

Quote:
When are you going to bring more to the discussion than l33t players er smarty and kno dem gamer stuff better?

Come back when you have something fucking better than shit pulled out of yours or somebody elses arse.

Wow. It's not "shit pulled out of my ass." Want something "fucking better"? Load up the game and try it for yourself. That's what I've been saying.

All of this is moot anyway. The point of the discussion is you said that it makes no sense that competitive types regard CE as the best Halo when it had no competitive player input. You cited CE's supposedly random spawn system as an example. Now, it can be demonstrated [i]in the game[/i] that, with very specific exceptions, players will spawn near their living teammate. Practically speaking, the spawns are not random when you consistently spawn near your living teammate. Whether CE's multiplayer designers designed it to spawn you near your teammate, or if it was some unintended byproduct of other factors in the game (like a software bug), is irrelevant. The result is the same either way. The spawns are predictable (go try it yourself), which adds to the game's strategy in the eyes of people who prefer CE.

If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's not hypocritical of someone who likes duck behavior to like it, regardless of the duck maker's intention.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 14:55
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My comments on CE not having competitive input and yet still being considered the best by 'some' players was a response to Dixon's comments including "get it in the hands of skilled players". I am suggesting that the lack of competitive input did not necessarily hurt CE and including competitive input for the following titles has not or may not necessarily help. The general public choose what they like. The most competitive Halo ever made, may still not be popular in today's world.

I did not intend for any linkage between competitive input and the random spawns reported by the only expert in this discussion with first hand experience, Max Hoberman. There is no linkage. I brought the spawning information forward because I thought it was 'interesting' and not because I remembered there was a previous contradictory discussion. I did not remember it until Tristan posted the link and I sort of remembered seeing it.

Experience in-game gives identifiable results. Sometimes these results may not be at all random. That does not identify the source of the result.

If you want to convince me that CE has a positive spawning influence similar to what you linked to, find an authority. I.E. A Bungie/343i/CA employee who has confirmed it.

I don't doubt Max Hoberman is capable of forgetting or not being aware of something related to this discussion. If you want me to believe he is wrong, prove he is wrong.

Loading up the CE game will result in the same anecdotal results if the experiment is done in the same way. I never said those authors had contrary results. So, in this discussion, if it  "walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck", you have to be prepared to show how it knew how to do these things. That last sentence is a little silly but maybe you understand what I meant.

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