Trouble keeping up? This will make you feel better.
Trouble keeping up? This will make you feel better.
I’m talking about racing, get your mind out of the gutter…you know who you are.
Tourni recently provided the below advice on how to get faster in another thread. Parcells felt it could use its own thread?
Tourni’s advice:
“There is only 3 questions that you need to ask yourself when racing Jdan - Did i hit that apex? Did i exit that corner as fast as possible (tracked out under full maximum allowable throttle) and what is the car telling me :) “
Allow Parcells to indulge. For those that don’t know Parcells is not as fast as Tourni nor am I considered one of the faster guys around here like Tourni but lets assume I’m about half a second or more slower than these guys and I think I know what I’m talking about. If anyone can identify clearly wrong advice below please feel free to correct me, you know I’m incapable of taking it personally :)
I’ve seen a lot good advice lately about how to become faster and Tourni’s advise is spot on. But just like most the other great advice it’s pretty fucken vague so let’s break down what some of the vague language means. Regardless of Tourni’s advice or what bores you below nothing is better than seat time. I would wager to bet there’s a hell of a lot of us who’ve put in literally 1000’s of hours SIM racing over the years and nothing trumps actual practice time especially against faster people.
Did I hit that apex? Problem here is one specific turn can have many different apexes. The apex of any given turn is ultimately where you make it which depends on a lot of factors. Your driving style for one (early/late braker) and how you approach the turn which entails all kinds of factors (traffic, accelerating or decelerating which affects the weight balance of the car which is crucial for optimizing any turn) which, I’m realizing now, are much too complicated to get into. There is an optimal apex point that the faster drivers try to hit (for maximum speed) but traffic almost always changes your “hot lap” racing line which often changes your apex point.
Generally speaking you will hit the optimal apex on most turns when you use the full width of the track…enter wide, hit your apex at the middle of the turn and then exit wide under throttle (acceleration). Not sure about sweeping turns they’re a tad different to most – exactly where is the apex or is there one???
Did I exit that corner as fast as possible (tracked out under full maximum allowable throttle)? So, your apex point can change but if you follow this part of Tourni’s advise you will get faster and ultimately be doing the best you can. The best advice I ever heard over the years was on some TV racing show where the instructor advised the student (roughly translated) “If you find yourself letting off the gas you got on the throttle too early” which is what Tourni is trying to convey here.
“Full maximum allowable throttle” does not mean flooring it, it may mean half throttle or quarter throttle or somewhere in between. Point being your goal coming out of every turn is to smoothly apply the throttle to full maximum while trying to avoid letting off the throttle at any time because if you are letting off the throttle somewhere along the traverse of applying more throttle you went too quickly or started throttling too quickly.
To me, this is the skill that gained me the most time over the years (I also call it patience). In doing so you are starting your acceleration curve before your competition and ultimately passing them before the next turn. This is exactly how the fast guys make the majority of their passes…it’s a pure physics/math equation where the earlier you start your acceleration the quicker you will get to the next turn.
You’ve heard the term “slow in fast out”. Well I can assure you this is 100% true. Above is how to maximize the “fast out” part of this proven tactic. You could approach all turns at 20 MPH and accomplish the “fast out” and the “slow in” parts quite easily but that wont work. Therefore your challenge is to try to enter a turn as fast as you can while keeping the car under enough control so you can still hit the optimal apex point and get under acceleration as soon as you can. Personally I would sacrifice corner entry speed before sacrificing exit speed. Good chance some arsehole will hit you from behind on corner entry but they shouldn’t do the same on the next turn.
What is the car telling me? Oh is that all? Not sure how to tackle this advise because the car can tell you all kinds of things. Often my car is telling me to “give up SIM racing Parcells you suck” but that hasn’t deterred me nor should it you. Only practice can teach you what the car is telling you but try to focus on how the weight of the car balances from front to back and side to side (what you do at the time to cause the weight shift) and how this affects your ability to turn that damn piece of metal into a turn so you get close to the optimal apex point.
Hope this helps. If you got nothing out of this just remember to have fun and avoid hitting Parcells!
As much as I hate to give parcells any sort of praise, I must say, well said sir..gif "1")
Thank you Parcells, that was a very interesting and informative read.
Damn...who are you, and what have you done with Parcells? who ever you are, great post.
Second Video.
http://youtu.be/n5rpFXdWtK4
Jackie said it better than Parcells in that first video Shag -> awesome! I can't view the second BBC video but based on the one picture of Jackie in the car I'm pretty sure that's the exact video I was referencing about the best advise I've ever heard.
Great advice Parcells. That info right there can help to make anyone faster, especially the part about working the corner exit until you don't have to lift the throttle.
If you watch some of the fast drivers in your replays, it really doesn't look like they are going that fast. But turn up the sound and listen to the engine noise. You will notice that once they start the corner exit, they never let off the throttle.
I thought of the Jackie Stewart and James May video as soon as I read the first post as well. I have tried to put that into practice about not applying too much throttle so you would have to lift off leaving the corner, the problem I think I have is not carrying enough speed into the corner safely.
At least I think it's that that's making so much slower than everyone else! Or just my aged reflexes.
On Jackie Stewart again, there was a good programme on BBC recently where he was interviewed by James Martin (a tv chef!) who then got to drive an original 70s Tyrrell F1 car round Monza.
Well ive just tried this on Silvestone Int with the Standard Seat SC. My times with my lexus (tune from Kraigger) i was doing 135's 136's with the standard Seat and trying out parcells advice i i did 10 laps and my average was 135's a couple of fuck ups and it was 136's. Not fast times i know but for me so with a tune i think i slip another second off my time ..
Great post! I remember watching that episode of Top Gear and then practicing some of that in Forza. In the past year from listening to all the great advice from everyone here I have noticed a huge difference in my lap times. I was really happy a couple weeks ago when I was able to stay on the same lap as some of the faster people.
To add a little to the "what is the car telling me" thing. If your tires are screaming "HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" going around a corner, chances are, your too hot. The car that helped me to learn about tire sounds was actually the Chevy Volt. No engine noise. Nothing but tires. It's also a decent B class car. For people trying to learn speed into a corner I'd suggest trying out an electric car so as the engine noise doesn't drown out your tire squeels. I beleive in the audio options menu you can change the audio settings to tires, don't quote me on that, I know there is an "Engine" option. Kinda puts more emphasis on the engine noise. Good posts everyone.
Edit: Does anyone remember the exact quote from the Forza 3 loading screen that said something about Braking used for stopping can't be used for turning and acceleration used to turn can't be used for to accel or something about those lines? I can't remember the exact quote, if someone can find it or put better words to it than I can, then I'll delete this edit. But to try to explain what I was trying to say, if you hit the gas coming out of the corner, you won't get the full accel of the car until you straighten out your car and the same goes for braking, the more braking you use to slow down, the less your car will want to turn into the corner. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Parcell’s isn’t sure what’s going on in your head nor do I care to know but it sounds like you’re talking about the available friction analogy…
As Mr. Stewart eludes to in the above videos the right approach is to perform your braking while your car is still driving in a straight line. In other words try to avoid braking mid-turn.
The only thing keeping your car on the road is the friction between the 4 wheels and the tarmac. This friction is used to both slow your car down and also to enable turning the car (without friction you cannot do either). You car has a total amount of available friction equal to X (or 100% of total available friction). If you’re using 50% of this available friction to stop your car (i.e. braking mid-turn) then you only have 50% of available friction left to turn the car hence your turning ability suffers.
The same logic applies to corner exit but turning and accelerating is much easier than turning and braking.
Or less if you tripod or "Church".
Fixed that for ya!
Good point my young apprentice!
Starting to think we all owe Church an apology. Its become clear to Parcells now that Church’s driving on the roof escapades was not the result of poor driving at all. He was obviously teaching the lessen that more surface area does not necessarily mean more friction.
Thanks Church! We’ll never doubt you until the next time we do.
Thank you Parcells. That is what I'm saying. Though more complicated, important none the less.
Hello,
well guys: This here is one of the best threads in our forum! Great advices from fast racers.
Thank you all for that!!!!!
JDANKERT
Although there is more surface area on a roof there is now means of power. So in turn its useless.
Although I haven't rolled it for a wee.. no wait I did last night. 3 times!
That's not a good picture Church. I can't see the manufacturer emblem on the roof?
That is a fantastic post Parcels, I do agree that alot of the advice is very vague when posted on the forum. The main reason for this is that I have two teaching styles within the training sessions.
The first is to teach some one to take A corner in a generic way, understanding how to make the corner as straight as possible by using all the track. A corner by corner approach, as you and I well know, its not that simple. There is far more to racing than just turning the wheel...
The second is tackling the corner based on the track around it, a corner with a long straight attached to it requires a different approach to one that is a hairpin after a long straight. One of the best points you mentioned is that the apex moves depending on what you are trying to achieve! A hotlap apex is alot different to a racing apex which is even more different to a defending.
As you rightly said, practice those exit points and apexs untill you get the time down, leave the braking zones until you have masted the other two. A braking zone can be defended.
When said "listen to what the car is telling you" I mean, listen to its atitude, how its reacting and what happens when you do certain inputs. Ie, if i'm going round a sweeper and lift off the throttle fast does the car push wide or does it bring nose right in and cause the back to slide? How can I manipulate that to my advantage? If i apply more throttle does the ass come around? - As Parcels said, smooth inputs will give you the most feedback. Don't confuse this wil slow inputs - Always squeeze the throttle or brakes!
Anyway, i'll try to do some example video at some point to support your post
T