Sandbox changes for 1.1.1 , Pluse Rifles getting a buff but ...

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#1 Thu, 02/05/2015 - 17:07
DEEP_NNN's picture
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Sandbox changes for 1.1.1 , Pluse Rifles getting a buff but ...

 Coming sometime soon.

Quote:

From the desk of Sandbox Designer Jon Weisnewski:

 

Hello, Guardians.

 

What you’re about to read is a heads-up about some upcoming changes to the weapons in Destiny, scheduled to go live in February with Update 1.1.1. This is the result of listening to feedback from the community, observation of players in the wild, poring over user research data, and regular internal playtests.

 

Many of these changes are subtle. It may take a little while to feel the nuanced differences, or you may feel the changes immediately. It all depends on how you play. This is an opportunity to change up your combat strategy in new ways, and/or double down in the areas that still feel good to you.

 

AUTO RIFLES

It’s our goal for the Auto Rifle to be a visceral, close-to-medium range chainsaw. It should reward target tracking, and drop in effectiveness at longer ranges. Looking at raw DPS [damage per second], the Auto Rifle is the most lethal primary weapon class across all of Destiny’s activities. 

 

Here’s a breakdown of kills by Primary archetype for the top players [filtered to focus on the top-half of the scoreboard] in Destiny.

 

 

That’s not just Suros. If you look at the top ten lethal weapons over a period of thirty days, six of them are Auto Rifles. Note the spike in SUROS starting on 1/13 - likely due to the Iron Banner Auto Rifle bounty. The ratios stay relatively consistent for non-Suros autos when Iron Banner is not in session.

 

 

It’s extremely effective in most combat scenarios and engagement distances. In fact, it is so effective that it’s intended role in the Primary family is being partially obscured. We want you to be able to deliver a steady stream of precision damage with an Auto Rifle, and you still can, but you’ll need to get a little bit closer. 

 

Goals:

  • Auto Rifle is optimal at close to medium range
  • Damage, Stability, and Range are tuned such that players desire Stability for reliable close quarters damage, or Range for better accuracy at a distance

 

Changes:

  • Reduce base damage of Auto Rifles by 2.5% (averaged across Rate of Fire stats, higher RoF took less of a reduction than low RoF)
  • Reduce effective range values so that damage falloff and accuracy are a stronger factor in combat decisions
  • Range reduction is less severe in the higher stat values, so now your range stat is more critical to long distance engagements

 

PULSE RIFLES

The Pulse Rifle is the spiritual middle ground between full-auto and semi-auto weapons, delivering lethal bursts at a forced pace. The right combat rhythm rewards both target tracking and precision shooting. 

 

Here are those same graphs again:

 

 

Pulse Rifles are currently the least used across all of the Tower’s warriors. We want to push these weapons to become a more compelling choice. 

 

Goals:

  • Pulse Rifle is optimal at medium range, but can still effectively harass enemies at close or long range distances
  • Rate of Fire sets a pace for players to both track moving targets, and then deliver precision damage in bursts

 

Changes:

  • Increase base damage of Pulse Rifles by 9.7%. DPS is now more in line with other primaries

 

HAND CANNONS

Hand Cannons are intended to be the ideal weapon for precision-minded players on the move. Our goal is that they are ideal at close to medium range. They reward the calm hand that can pace shots under chaotic combat situations. The rounds hit like a truck so you shouldn’t need to fire fast to be effective.

 

Right now, the Hand Cannons work as advertised, but they’re a little too effective at longer ranges. We’re finding that players get very comfortable hanging back and using the Hand Cannon like a Scout Rifle or a Sniper Rifle. With these new changes, you can still hit targets at long range, but the shots need to be paced out and the damage will be lower until you close in on your target. 

 

Goals:

  • Hand Cannon is optimal at medium range
  • Hand Cannon is optimal when shots are paced, becomes less effective when fired quickly
  • Rewards agility when under fire, precision targeting, and snap shots

 

Changes:

  • Reduce effective range
  • Damage falloff starts closer to the shooter, and follow up shots are less accurate at long ranges
  • Slight reduction to initial accuracy
    • This is unnoticeable at close to medium range, but underscores the range intentions when used from far away

 

FUSION RIFLES

Fusion Rifles are one of the most contentious weapons in the PvP arena right now. They’ve been largely untouched since Destiny launched and it has been great to watch the community slowly adopt these weapons and understand how to use them effectively. Currently, they are the most hotly unliked weapon to be killed by. On the other end of the feedback spectrum, they are supremely satisfying guns to kill with.

 

It is pretty easy to find and build a Fusion Rifle that can push the range limits and land one hit kills and/or massive damage from pretty far away. Furthermore, in The Crucible it is not difficult to depend on a steady stream of special ammo so that players rarely have to pick and choose the right time to use this weapon. Our changes address these issues and leave the overall feel and function of Fusion Rifles intact.

 

Goals:

  • Fusion Rifles are optimal at mid-range, where targets are easier to track but they’re not close enough to attack while you charge up
  • Requires combat foresight and the ability to predict a target’s movement to use successfully

 

Changes:

  • Blast pattern on a Fusion Rifle burst cone is a little wider
    • Close to medium range volleys are largely unaffected, but at a distance the projectiles are less likely to land hits on a single target
    • This reduces the reliability of landing a one hit kill at far range, and makes the weapon better at spreading damage into a group
  • Initial starting ammo is reduced across all ammo stats. This is change primarily affects The Crucible
    • Starting a Crucible match, you’ll have less Fusion Rifle ammo in reserve
    • In PvE activities we persistently track your ammo. We only use initial ammo values if you are logging in for the first time, or starting a Crucible match

 

SHOTGUNS

Shotguns are the close quarters king. These are the weapons you need to eliminate anything that is directly in your face. The role of the Shotgun has been well established in the shooter genre for a long time now. For Destiny, we have some interesting data from the field: A very high amount of players use Shotguns in PvP, and almost no one uses them in PvE.

 

 

In PvE activities, the reward of a close quarters Shotgun attack on any non-grunt enemy doesn’t give you enough of a damage spike to warrant using this weapon. Like the Fusion Rifles, in the Crucible it’s not difficult to find a Shotgun that is very lethal at some unexpected ranges. Some of the higher range values have been pulled in to help eliminate long distance Guardian one shots. We’ve also seen that the Crucible ammo economy allows for players to use Shotguns with wild abandon. So, like the Fusion Rifle, we’ve made a reduction to initial starting ammo.

 

Goals:

  • Shotgun is the most optimal at very close range
  • Complements melee attacks and other close quarters class builds
  • Offensively closing on an enemy with a Shotgun is a risk/reward timing game

 

Changes:

  • Increase damage by 2x (100%) against all non-Guardian combatants (aliens)
  • Reduce high end range values - damage falloff starts sooner, so Crucible players with long range shotguns need to be a little closer for successful one hit kills
  • (Like the Fusion Rifle) Initial starting ammo is reduced across all ammo stats in the Crucible:
    • Starting a Crucible match, you’ll have less Shotgun ammo in reserve
    • In PvE activities we persistently track your ammo
    • We only use initial ammo values if you are logging in for the first time, or starting a Crucible match

 

SCOUT RIFLE, SNIPER RIFLE, HEAVY MACHINEGUN, ROCKET LAUNCHER

For the most part, these weapons have not been changed as a part of this update. However, changes to the Destiny arsenal mean that untouched weapons may now seem different in side by side comparisons. You may discover new reasons to start using some of these weapons as part of your combat strategy.

 

"Why did you “nerf” my favorite weapon? Why not make the other ones better and leave mine alone?"

 

Good question! Here’s why: We pay close attention to kill times in all game modes against all combatant types. If we brought up all the other weapons to account for lethality spikes that occur in specific situations, then our TTK (time to kill) would get faster with every patch. It is important to us to keep TTK values such that your arsenal feels lethal, but also both allows for some drama while you fight, and creates opportunities for counter-play when you’re being attacked.

 

One of the great things about working on this game is how players continually change our understanding of how the game plays. We have an evolving tennis match of serves and returns. As always, we’ll be watching and listening. Keep the feedback coming.

 

Your ball.

Game: 
Fri, 02/06/2015 - 07:44
Bluestar's picture
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I really don't get the across the board nerfing.  The stats on those other AR's is hardly staggering compared to Suros.  Maybe Bungie should look at their map design to see why AR's are so in demand.  The maps are hardly conducive to longer range weapons, at least in Control.  At least Bad Juju might be a little more useful now.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 10:29
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I'm glad to see the Hand Cannon's range get nerfed. It was cheap how you could snipe with them. That's just in PvE as well I'm talking about.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 11:12
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really? the hand canon was a great gun in pvp, i was personally tired of the shotgun/fusion rifle whores. I was surprised that the pistol wasnt number one in pvp and that the autorifle was. I am interested in the 9.7% dps bump on the pulse rifles, imo they needed it, they are some of the most useless guns right now, id like to use my bad juju, but its like shooting rubber bullets, hopefully that will change with the patch. 

i see they are buffing shotties, like they need it, im sure that will be more rampant than ever now. 

 

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 11:32
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Everything you learned about guns in Destiny.... forget about it. Sucks that they change weapon effectiveness this deep into the game's life cycle.

Myself and I suspect many others have developed a list of weapons that work, and have abandoned weapons that didn't. I abandoned 2 Red Death pulse rifles because of their ineffectiveness for me. Now.... they give pulse rifles a damage boost. I keep a couple hand cannons around because of their effectiveness in PvP. I have trouble putting enough damage on targets with anything else. Now, they take away the effectiveness of the HC. All the practice, all the time, and all the other weapons I've abandoned because I liked HCs make me like Destiny less. 

Bungie collected PvP and PvE data for many years during the Halo series. They had a long time to evaluate weapons before the Beta, during the Beta and then before the 9/2014 release. It's like they didn't learn anything....

 

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 13:13
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I kept my Red Death, he he. Coiled Hiss too.

I know what you mean though. I throw away Hand Cannons and shotties like clear water. Never know when that might be a mistake.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 13:25
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Now that I've had a little more time to think about it....

I think this weapon tuning update could be mostly about the Red Death pulse rifle. I bought one when Xur sold them last fall because the book said it was a bad ass pulse rifle. I dutifully ranked it up, thinking the last few bubbles of damage upgrade would improve its effectiveness. Never did. The rifle was effective against low level Fallen/Hive/Vex, but it was a water pistol against high ranking yellow bars - little more useful than the Stranger's Rifle. I scrapped it. Then I got another Red Death in an engram after the DLC drop. Yay... not. I scrapped it before shooting it even once. 

Fast forward to the release of the CE hard mode... Bungie put a video on their web site showing one of the first teams to beat it. The sword carrier used the Red Death to regen health (its only worthwhile perk). Problem is, I cannot imagine using a next to worthless pulse rifle in CE hard mode. The health regen perks in the warlock helmet Apothesis Veil are more useful and you aren't hobbled with a weak primary weapon..

The Red Death is one of a very few weapons that regen health - built for , I think, CE hard. That's why Bungie is giving it a tune up. Just wish they'd leave the HCs, scouts and ARs alone. 

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 13:26
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I have Coiled Hiss but hate it. Only used it until I found a 331 Auto rifle. Now it just sits in my vault. Might have to use it now.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 15:03
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I don't think it will really matter. People will try Pulse Rifles, delcare pulse rifles are better and then go back to their tried and true loadouts. People like ARs becuase it's simply easier to spray and pray. 

The only way to make people want to play with Pulse Rifles is to make them overpowered. This would, of course, be a big no-no, so I don't expect to see much change in those percantages.

I really don't care about ARs. I actually don't mind Pulse Rifles and will generally play them over ARs. However, I just find Scout Rifles and Handcannons are more fun for my playstyle. 

To each their own. I guess this gives us something to talk about since it seems we'll not have much in the way of new content for Destiny for a few more months.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 15:42
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Pulse rifles suck because they have too little ammo, they kick too much, and most of them fire IMO too fast considering the kick of the weapon. Also, while there might be exceptions, I have several scout rifles with firefly and fatebringer and IB also have the exploding perk. I haven't seen one on a pulse yet . So from a pure crowd control perspective those other guns own.

I don't really think this DPS boost is a fix, more like a bandaid which doesn't address the kick or RoF issue, or (possibly) superior perks on other guns.

I also find it really weird that the company that invented the Halo Battle Rifle can't get a friggin pulse rifle to work right as a medium range weapon. The Halo BR is probably the greatest gaming pulse rifle ever made.

Hand cannons were totally OP especially in PVP where they were basically sniper rifles. It was a good nerf. The fusion rifle nerf will probably make them less effective medium range but they are still largely better than shotguns in close to medium range. Fusion rifles are ridiculous.

Shotguns blow in PvE because mobs hit too hard up close and because better weapons exist in the special slot - snipers and fusion rifles. They also suck vs. fusion rifles in PvE. If you want to try taking a mino down in VoG HM with a shotgun, you probably already lost the fight or you're going to be hurt badly. In PvP fusion rifles outclass shotguns on most maps because of the ability to charge then fire from cover.

 

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 11:19
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After playing Destiny for five months my play style has settled in on using scout rifles for my main choice of primary. Starting to use auto rifles a lot more now that I have a ranked up Suros. It's highly unlikely that I will start using a pulse rifle for all of the reasons stated earlier (I could make an exception for a Red Death).

Same as with Halo, I stopped using BRs when the DMR became available.

Fri, 02/20/2015 - 09:52
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Pulse Rifle gets no love in PvP. Patch will change that.

Fri, 02/20/2015 - 14:36
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Finally got the CE primary arc pulse rifle Oversoul Edict fully upgraded. Works well as is in NF and weekly strikes, and it cuts even through the Knight's Wall of Darkness. With the update and pulse rifle buff coming, it may be even better.

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 15:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRjo_epRqDg

Good video discussing the 1.1.1 update as it relates to weapons tuning. As was suggested in the update announcement, the 2.5% hit auto rifles got is not across the board. The SUROS saw a 13+% hit and the Hard Light got a similar reduction in damage. The Red Death pulse rifle on the other hand, like I imagined it would, saw the biggest increase in damage of any pulse rifle - by nearly the same amount as the SUROS lost. I suspect that in a couple months Bungie will reshuffle the deck once again to make some other gun the new "goto". I think the whole thing sucks...

Will the shotgun's 100% damage boost against non-guardians cause poeple to use them? Does the 100% damage boost apply to the Universal Remote in PvE?

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 15:41
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Figures.  I finally got a Suros drop in VOG on Tuesday.

At least they made it so you can transfer equipment to and from the vault using the mobile app now.  No more running to the tower to transfer weapons across characters.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 15:18
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Love that new feature. Just used it to prepare my gaurdians for CE and VoG tonight.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 06:45
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What is really nice about the companion is that for weapon synths you can select how many you want of each from the vault instead of having to grb them all.  I am going to keep a supply there from now on and grab some if needed via the companion.

On another note, the Oversoul Edict pulse rifle is kicking arse in this week's Nightfall thanks to arc burn and the pulse rifle buff.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 12:03 (Reply to #17)
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OldnAchy wrote:

What is really nice about the companion is that for weapon synths you can select how many you want of each from the vault instead of having to grb them all.  I am going to keep a supply there from now on and grab some if needed via the companion.

On another note, the Oversoul Edict pulse rifle is kicking arse in this week's Nightfall thanks to arc burn and the pulse rifle buff.

The Oversoul Edict does work great in the NF. 

On another subject, I got a Red Death as a drop in CE. Been ranking it up, so far to the last 3 remaining bubbles. Still don't think that highly of it. The Oversoul Edict is an all-around more effective primary. The biggest problem with the RD is that you can't have either the Icebreaker or Gjallarhorn up at the same time. I don't see it as a good trade, despite its health regen. Maybe in hard mode... We'll see. I still haven't seen anyone use it in the wild.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 13:28
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I used Red Death in CE hard mode a bit. Seemed to work pretty good and getting your health back is a perfect bonus.

A little slow firing and can't overwhelm a Thral horde.

Sat, 03/07/2015 - 12:05
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Agreed on red death, the only place I use it is the Crota hard checkpoint.  I've had 3 drop, only kept 1 and definitely prefer OE over it.  I'd even pick bad juju over red death because of the awkward fire rate.

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