Do people only remember when JIP screws them? Surely there must be examples where people have benefitted?
Not at all, I have problems when the JIP screws you because it is a flawed gameplay mechanic.
I have joined down 10 kills and went +28 to win. I think that in order for CSR to be at all credible, they need to get rid of JIP...which they will never do now because the populace is so thinly stretched now. It's a bandaid fix for low playlist population.
I would much rather wait in lobby screen (H3 anyone?) Searching for a game, than to join any game in progress. Those games are always a cluster fuck, especially in gametypes involving an initial power weapon spawn.
Do people only remember when JIP screws them? Surely there must be examples where people have benefitted?
I am glad to have JIP in the game and find it works well filling spots when people leave before the game starts OR within the opening moments of the game. This is when I'm glad to have JIP and I find it works well.
The issue with being placed in a losing scenario is distasteful, especially now that we may be trying to improve our CSRs.
Prime example over the weekend. I was searching in CTF with a team of 4. We JIP a match on Adrift with the other team already up 2-0 AND with our flag. We have no chance of stopping them and it's suddenly 3-0. We lost this one and by no fault of our own, this was due to JIP placing us in a horrible situation - not to mention how tedious CTF on Adrift can become once one team gets a lead and "protects" their base.
I have also joined Rumble Pit and Infinity Slayer games where I lost rank due to JIP and my not having time to do any good. JIP is especially hurtful in playlists where your CSR is based off of individual performance - you join late and there just isn't time to catch up.
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
So you're not remembering join in progress at all?
I think you'd have to define "in your favo(u)r". I'm not sure what that means.
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
So you're not remembering join in progress at all?
I think you'd have to define "in your favo(u)r". I'm not sure what that means.
Doesn't matter what I remember. JIP has been in since the beginning hasn't it.
The notion JIP is a population issue is flawed since it's been there through high population days.
343i has put JIP in Team Throwdown for crying out loud. They have no intention of removing it. They've put CSR in all playlists. Any idea 343i is going to change their approach is wishful thinking.
People who are any good in a playlist will reach 50 if they want to. JIP will not stop those who actually are capable and willing to try.
I could care less about JIP. I'm one of those guys who'd hang around to the bitter end of each game and never quit no matter how many of my team quit.
If JIP can affect CSR unfavourably, then the reverse must also be possible unless it is a mathematical fact that it isn't. I have have no need to prove it.
You must remember that for years some people were asking for JIP. It wasn't me who 'favoured' it, but here it is.
People are going to complain and I can't stop them. I may call them out from time to time if only to get them to think about the validity or worthiness of their complaints.
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
So you're not remembering join in progress at all?
I think you'd have to define "in your favo(u)r". I'm not sure what that means.
Doesn't matter what I remember. JIP has been in since the beginning hasn't it.
The notion JIP is a population issue is flawed since it's been there through high population days.
343i has put JIP in Team Throwdown for crying out loud. They have no intention of removing it. They've put CSR in all playlists. Any idea 343i is going to change their approach is wishful thinking.
People who are any good in a playlist will reach 50 if they want to. JIP will not stop those who actually are capable and willing to try.
I could care less about JIP. I'm one of those guys who'd hang around to the bitter end of each game and never quit no matter how many of my team quit.
If JIP can affect CSR unfavourably, then the reverse must also be possible unless it is a mathematical fact that it isn't. I have have no need to prove it.
You must remember that for years some people were asking for JIP. It wasn't me who 'favoured' it, but here it is.
People are going to complain and I can't stop them. I may call them out from time to time if only to get them to think about the validity or worthiness of their complaints.
So, what does it mean to have join in progress work in your favor, then?
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
I have had it work in my favor MAYBE twice. MAYBE. Most of the time, it throws me into a game that is beyond saving, towards the end, with total douchenozzles on my team. Case in point: this weekend a group of us were in Big Team. it threw us into a game with only two people on the team we joined. Why? Because one of them had the Mech thingy and was destroying all the other vehicles at our base, betraying us, and NOT killing the other team at all. He also jumped out of the thing once...long enough to grab our snipe, then jump back in the Mech. He could betray US because he's in a vehicle, but we couldn't hurt him at all. Awesome. (and no, it never gave any of us the option to boot him.)
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
I have had it work in my favor MAYBE twice. MAYBE. Most of the time, it throws me into a game that is beyond saving, towards the end, with total douchenozzles on my team. Case in point: this weekend a group of us were in Big Team. it threw us into a game with only two people on the team we joined. Why? Because one of them had the Mech thingy and was destroying all the other vehicles at our base, betraying us, and NOT killing the other team at all. He also jumped out of the thing once...long enough to grab our snipe, then jump back in the Mech. He could betray US because he's in a vehicle, but we couldn't hurt him at all. Awesome. (and no, it never gave any of us the option to boot him.)
Thanks.
So JIP can affect CSR positively, even if you think it happens less often than the reverse.
It's unfortunate you run into those pricks in MM but it happens no matter what systems are in place.
Of course there are times when JIP results in an easy win, but most times you join a game you'll be losing because your team has been outnumbered before you came in.
JIP sort of works in TTD, because the limit the window JIP will be allowed. I believe it is the first minute after a game starts.
Now I will NOT say JIP has NEVER worked for me. I am sure that it has, but the larger percentage of times when I have joined a game (NON TTD) it is already a lost cause. I have also joined games down by big margins and helped bring it back, but those numbers are very small.
Generally the team is down by 3 caps, 15-20 plus kills, 3 point extraction deficite, etc. The other team will also have any/all power ups/weapons on the map, plus what ever they are getting through the OD.
I think JIP can work, but it needs the TTD model to have a realistic chance of providing a possilbe decent game.
JIP sort of works in TTD, because the limit the window JIP will be allowed. I believe it is the first minute after a game starts.
Now I will NOT say JIP has NEVER worked for me. I am sure that it has, but the larger percentage of times when I have joined a game (NON TTD) it is already a lost cause. I have also joined games down by big margins and helped bring it back, but those numbers are very small.
Generally the team is down by 3 caps, 15-20 plus kills, 3 point extraction deficite, etc. The other team will also have any/all power ups/weapons on the map, plus what ever they are getting through the OD.
I think JIP can work, but it needs the TTD model to have a realistic chance of providing a possilbe decent game.
Agreed, good post LB.
I'm not saying JIP is bad, but that it doesn't work properly in some playlists. 343 has stated they are aware of issues and are looking at ways to improve the JIP system.
If you don't play MM, then you can't really speak to how well JIP works - this is especially true if you don't play alone. When I search alone, I get thrown into more JIP matches which makes sense. However, unless it's during loading or early in the game, you will be joining a game on the losing team. Sometimes it's just a few kills or 1 cap down - most other times it's a larger deficit.
I see JIP as a fun challenge. I like being thrown into a game where maybe my team was down a player or two and is reasonably behind and I have the chance to be part of a comeback. I don't really care about my rank, I just like to try to win games.
I have mentioned a game where I came in and my team was down 10 kills, when I went at least +25 to go up. In order for it to have any merit at all, JIP needs to be weighted with in game times. Being in a game, and going 3-1 in less than 2 minutes should not cause someone to lost one CSR.
The problem with jip is the instances of jip working negatively against you outweighs the positive instances. Simply hiding behind the veil of ignorance to give 343 the benefit of the doubt doesn't work anymore. The reason behind the amount of complaining about jip from the fanbase should indicate there is a slight problem. Sticking fingers in the ears isn't the answer.
It's usually pretty rare that JIP will work in your favor. This is just the nature of how it works. How often would someone leave a party that is actually winning and controlling the map. I would say that is a pretty rare instance. I don't have any statistics or facts to backup my statement but I would say that the majority of people leaving are usually because they are getting worked. don't think I have ever joined a game where it worked in my favor. There have been times I've joined a game, been down and came back to win. That has nothing to do with JIP favoring me. It's just has to do with the other team being less skilled.
My conclusion is that JIP is a crappy way to fix the current matchmaking problems. When the voting screen comes up, people should get locked into selections. They shouldn't have an option to back out. However, the voting system should also load a little slow, providing people with the opportunity to back out of the post game lobby. If they want to fix JIP as it is, they should limit the JIP to the first minute or two of the match (time should depend on the size of the map). While this can make a huge difference between 2 equally skilled teams, overall, the team with more skill will likely prevail even with a slight disadvantage.
edit: And to respond to the main point of this post, It will be interesting to see what changes are implemented. I'm in the mindset where results and final changes matter more than all the discussions. You can talk about balancing weapons until your blue in the face but if they aren't made to the game, then it was all for naught. Interesting changes and I'm excited to see how it finally plays out.
It's usually pretty rare that JIP will work in your favor. This is just the nature of how it works. How often would someone leave a party that is actually winning and controlling the map. I would say that is a pretty rare instance. I don't have any statistics or facts to backup my statement but I would say that the majority of people leaving are usually because they are getting worked. don't think I have ever joined a game where it worked in my favor. There have been times I've joined a game, been down and came back to win. That has nothing to do with JIP favoring me. It's just has to do with the other team being less skilled.
My conclusion is that JIP is a crappy way to fix the current matchmaking problems. When the voting screen comes up, people should get locked into selections. They shouldn't have an option to back out. However, the voting system should also load a little slow, providing people with the opportunity to back out of the post game lobby. If they want to fix JIP as it is, they should limit the JIP to the first minute or two of the match (time should depend on the size of the map). While this can make a huge difference between 2 equally skilled teams, overall, the team with more skill will likely prevail even with a slight disadvantage.
edit: And to respond to the main point of this post, It will be interesting to see what changes are implemented. I'm in the mindset where results and final changes matter more than all the discussions. You can talk about balancing weapons until your blue in the face but if they aren't made to the game, then it was all for naught. Interesting changes and I'm excited to see how it finally plays out.
Which means I could never play with Hoplite, because he'd insist on making my play Complex, just to punish me.
I like JIP. I play BTB and in past Halos 9 out of 10 games there would be quiter. I haven't had to many times where I've been put into a game where we are down by to much to comeback. As far as CSR goes I really don't take the rank to serious.
I don't think there are many if any situations where JIP doesn't screw someone over.
You join late for a victory you didn't earn.
You join late for a loss you didn't cause.
People join late getting your team the win, screwing over the other team.
People join you late causing you to go from winning to a loss.
Bugs caused by JIP such as assault rifle wielding players in Flood that aren't on either team.
CSR going up or down in a match that includes joins in progress goes against what the rank was supposed to show. How much skill does a 50 really have when every time he joined a match and ranked up it was because he joined in progress on the winning side with seconds left?
If people want to join in progress, that's fine, keep your custom party friends only. At best it should be an option to choose if you want to be put in matches in progress, and if you want people able to join matches you're in if you lose teammates. I'd be fine if this COD feature hadn't migrated over at all though.
Join in progress changes the outcome for someone every time it happens. It should not be in matchmaking.
I am glad to have JIP in the game and find it works well filling spots when people leave before the game starts OR within the opening moments of the game. This is when I'm glad to have JIP and I find it works well.
The issue with being placed in a losing scenario is distasteful, especially now that we may be trying to improve our CSRs.
Prime example over the weekend. I was searching in CTF with a team of 4. We JIP a match on Adrift with the other team already up 2-0 AND with our flag. We have no chance of stopping them and it's suddenly 3-0. We lost this one and by no fault of our own, this was due to JIP placing us in a horrible situation - not to mention how tedious CTF on Adrift can become once one team gets a lead and "protects" their base.
I have also joined Rumble Pit and Infinity Slayer games where I lost rank due to JIP and my not having time to do any good. JIP is especially hurtful in playlists where your CSR is based off of individual performance - you join late and there just isn't time to catch up.
So nobody is remembering when JIP works in their favour? It seems too incredible to be true that JIP always affects CSR negatively. Can anyone prove that JIP always affects CSR negatively? You know if you can't, I'm going to call bullshit on this JIP complaint. I agree some games can and must have had a negative CSR effect but I also believe the reverse must be true. Of course I don't care one bit about my CSR and MM is not my bread and butter so I have no memory of JIP's effects.
So you're not remembering join in progress at all?
I think you'd have to define "in your favo(u)r". I'm not sure what that means.
The notion JIP is a population issue is flawed since it's been there through high population days.
343i has put JIP in Team Throwdown for crying out loud. They have no intention of removing it. They've put CSR in all playlists. Any idea 343i is going to change their approach is wishful thinking.
People who are any good in a playlist will reach 50 if they want to. JIP will not stop those who actually are capable and willing to try.
I could care less about JIP. I'm one of those guys who'd hang around to the bitter end of each game and never quit no matter how many of my team quit.
If JIP can affect CSR unfavourably, then the reverse must also be possible unless it is a mathematical fact that it isn't. I have have no need to prove it.
You must remember that for years some people were asking for JIP. It wasn't me who 'favoured' it, but here it is.
People are going to complain and I can't stop them. I may call them out from time to time if only to get them to think about the validity or worthiness of their complaints.
So, what does it mean to have join in progress work in your favor, then?
Joining ten down, and having shitty teammates in my above post count :)
So JIP can affect CSR positively, even if you think it happens less often than the reverse.
It's unfortunate you run into those pricks in MM but it happens no matter what systems are in place.
JIP sort of works in TTD, because the limit the window JIP will be allowed. I believe it is the first minute after a game starts.
Now I will NOT say JIP has NEVER worked for me. I am sure that it has, but the larger percentage of times when I have joined a game (NON TTD) it is already a lost cause. I have also joined games down by big margins and helped bring it back, but those numbers are very small.
Generally the team is down by 3 caps, 15-20 plus kills, 3 point extraction deficite, etc. The other team will also have any/all power ups/weapons on the map, plus what ever they are getting through the OD.
I think JIP can work, but it needs the TTD model to have a realistic chance of providing a possilbe decent game.
Agreed, good post LB.
I'm not saying JIP is bad, but that it doesn't work properly in some playlists. 343 has stated they are aware of issues and are looking at ways to improve the JIP system.
If you don't play MM, then you can't really speak to how well JIP works - this is especially true if you don't play alone. When I search alone, I get thrown into more JIP matches which makes sense. However, unless it's during loading or early in the game, you will be joining a game on the losing team. Sometimes it's just a few kills or 1 cap down - most other times it's a larger deficit.
I see JIP as a fun challenge. I like being thrown into a game where maybe my team was down a player or two and is reasonably behind and I have the chance to be part of a comeback. I don't really care about my rank, I just like to try to win games.
I have mentioned a game where I came in and my team was down 10 kills, when I went at least +25 to go up. In order for it to have any merit at all, JIP needs to be weighted with in game times. Being in a game, and going 3-1 in less than 2 minutes should not cause someone to lost one CSR.
Negative JIP that made me drop from 42 back to 41: https://app.halowaypoint.com/en-us/Halo4/Doul3le%20T/wargames/match-793f...
Positive JIP (team was down 10 when I joined): https://app.halowaypoint.com/en-us/Halo4/Doul3le%20T/wargames/match-cffb...
also, these games only are showing games for the people who finish the game, which is crap.
It's usually pretty rare that JIP will work in your favor. This is just the nature of how it works. How often would someone leave a party that is actually winning and controlling the map. I would say that is a pretty rare instance. I don't have any statistics or facts to backup my statement but I would say that the majority of people leaving are usually because they are getting worked. don't think I have ever joined a game where it worked in my favor. There have been times I've joined a game, been down and came back to win. That has nothing to do with JIP favoring me. It's just has to do with the other team being less skilled.
My conclusion is that JIP is a crappy way to fix the current matchmaking problems. When the voting screen comes up, people should get locked into selections. They shouldn't have an option to back out. However, the voting system should also load a little slow, providing people with the opportunity to back out of the post game lobby. If they want to fix JIP as it is, they should limit the JIP to the first minute or two of the match (time should depend on the size of the map). While this can make a huge difference between 2 equally skilled teams, overall, the team with more skill will likely prevail even with a slight disadvantage.
edit: And to respond to the main point of this post, It will be interesting to see what changes are implemented. I'm in the mindset where results and final changes matter more than all the discussions. You can talk about balancing weapons until your blue in the face but if they aren't made to the game, then it was all for naught. Interesting changes and I'm excited to see how it finally plays out.
Which means I could never play with Hoplite, because he'd insist on making my play Complex, just to punish me.
I like JIP. I play BTB and in past Halos 9 out of 10 games there would be quiter. I haven't had to many times where I've been put into a game where we are down by to much to comeback. As far as CSR goes I really don't take the rank to serious.
I don't think there are many if any situations where JIP doesn't screw someone over.
You join late for a victory you didn't earn.
You join late for a loss you didn't cause.
People join late getting your team the win, screwing over the other team.
People join you late causing you to go from winning to a loss.
Bugs caused by JIP such as assault rifle wielding players in Flood that aren't on either team.
CSR going up or down in a match that includes joins in progress goes against what the rank was supposed to show. How much skill does a 50 really have when every time he joined a match and ranked up it was because he joined in progress on the winning side with seconds left?
If people want to join in progress, that's fine, keep your custom party friends only. At best it should be an option to choose if you want to be put in matches in progress, and if you want people able to join matches you're in if you lose teammates. I'd be fine if this COD feature hadn't migrated over at all though.
Join in progress changes the outcome for someone every time it happens. It should not be in matchmaking.