Interesting read about the making of H4..

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#1 Fri, 04/26/2013 - 13:22
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Interesting read about the making of H4..

Gamasutra Article is an interesting read about the making of H4 and some of the trials and tribulations they faced. Some of the things I read made me think, why the hell would you do that (part about hiring people that hated Halo). I can see the theory that would be a good thing to bring in a different prospective and help introduce new things, but, it cans of ends up giving us what we have now.

I kind of liken it to, highering a vegan chef to work at your favorite steak house.

 

Anyway a decent article about the perspective where they were coming from.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 14:59
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LB, please don't get on the hyperbole train too. This is what was said.

Quote:
We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team.
That's along way from hiring people who hate Halo. The Internet doesn't even read the articles. They just spread hyperbole like "343i employees hate Halo". The very least 2old2play can do is honour the spirit of what was said.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:21 (Reply to #2)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

LB, please don't get on the hyperbole train too. This is what was said.

Quote:
We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team.
That's along way from hiring people who hate Halo. The Internet doesn't even read the articles. They just spread hyperbole like "343i employees hate Halo". The very least 2old2play can do is honour the spirit of what was said.

So if they "hated" Halo because (as an example) they thought the kill times were too long, sprint should be universal or the maps were too small - that's different from somebody that just hates Halo for no good reason? 

Poor choice of words by Frankie (hopefully). If they hired people that told them they hated Halo, for any reason, that makes me go "hmmmmmm?"

Would you hire a new employee that stated they "hated" your company or product? I hope not.

Now, I would consider hiring a person that appreciated my company/product, but thought things could be done better. 

Perhaps it's just a bad statement on his part, but saying "hate" is kind of strong wording. 

Anyway, as far as the article. I think we've kind of heard it all before from 343 about their trials and tribulations when it came to making H4 and piecing together a new studio. Here's to hoping these growing pains will just make future Halos even better!

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:35 (Reply to #3)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

LB, please don't get on the hyperbole train too. This is what was said.

Quote:
We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team.
That's along way from hiring people who hate Halo. The Internet doesn't even read the articles. They just spread hyperbole like "343i employees hate Halo". The very least 2old2play can do is honour the spirit of what was said.

 

Shake shake shake.  Shake.  Shake, shake.

 

Edited to add:  Nobody here said that 343i employees hate Halo.  I understand you check a lot of places online and get wounded when you see some weird hyperbole coming from some corners of the Internet, but this thread isn't one of those places (yet).

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:47 (Reply to #4)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

LB, please don't get on the hyperbole train too. This is what was said.

Quote:
We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team.
That's along way from hiring people who hate Halo. The Internet doesn't even read the articles. They just spread hyperbole like "343i employees hate Halo". The very least 2old2play can do is honour the spirit of what was said.

 

Shake shake shake.  Shake.  Shake, shake.

 

Edited to add:  Nobody here said that 343i employees hate Halo.  I understand you check a lot of places online and get wounded when you see some weird hyperbole coming from some corners of the Internet, but this thread isn't one of those places (yet).

LB's OP said as much.
Quote:
part about hiring people that hated Halo).
People who drop in here don't read the linked articles and are relying heavily on the content we provide. I know the when the hyperbole train is warming up and I try to intervene, sometimes.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:53 (Reply to #5)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

LB, please don't get on the hyperbole train too. This is what was said.

Quote:
We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team.
That's along way from hiring people who hate Halo. The Internet doesn't even read the articles. They just spread hyperbole like "343i employees hate Halo". The very least 2old2play can do is honour the spirit of what was said.

except it's the quintessential difference between bungie and 343 and why it worked.  They loved what they did, they weren't in it for the money so to say (I mean, who would REALLY work 70 hours a week for anything but a paycheck).

 

So basically, it's all Frankie's fault. 115

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:06
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But what was changed because of X?  That's the problem.  So 343 hires some AAA developers who don't like Halo for some reason (sniper's too difficult to use, don't like being de-scoped, no sprint capabilities for everyone, etc).  How much input did these developers have and what, if any, changes were made because of this?  Were they positive?  Did the changes end up being negative?  

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:18 (Reply to #7)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

But what was changed because of X?  That's the problem.  So 343 hires some AAA developers who don't like Halo for some reason (sniper's too difficult to use, don't like being de-scoped, no sprint capabilities for everyone, etc).  How much input did these developers have and what, if any, changes were made because of this?  Were they positive?  Did the changes end up being negative?  

Okay but we don't know all of this for Bungie's hires over the years nor did we care. Why should we care now? Bungie may have hired similar people for similar reasons starting Halo 2. Now it is something that is terribly important to us? The product is what it is. The effects each employee had on the product are not something we 'need' to take issue with.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:23
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Why not?  Because you're happy with the product?  What about the people that aren't?  Are we simply to take a seat and let it be?  If the people they hired didn't like Halo for some reason and they had a profound effect on its final version, we absolutely should care.  

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:41 (Reply to #9)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Why not?  Because you're happy with the product?  What about the people that aren't?  Are we simply to take a seat and let it be?  If the people they hired didn't like Halo for some reason and they had a profound effect on its final version, we absolutely should care.  

I am not the only person on 2old2play to be somewhat or mostly happy with Halo 4. Don't single me out.A lot of people who like Halo 4 don't post here or anywhere. Basically I am one of the rare ones that's comes in here to fight with you and others and the hyperbole train. Most people in MM are playing Infinty settings. The old ways are dead except for 343i pandering to a vocal minority. I believe they are wasting their time because that minority is too volatile to court. Bungie mostly knew that. Try and beat up on me and my opinions all you want, Halo will not change because of it.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 16:00 (Reply to #10)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Why not?  Because you're happy with the product?  What about the people that aren't?  Are we simply to take a seat and let it be?  If the people they hired didn't like Halo for some reason and they had a profound effect on its final version, we absolutely should care.  

I am not the only person on 2old2play to be somewhat or mostly happy with Halo 4. Don't single me out.A lot of people who like Halo 4 don't post here or anywhere. Basically I am one of the rare ones that's comes in here to fight with you and others and the hyperbole train. Most people in MM are playing Infinty settings. The old ways are dead except for 343i pandering to a vocal minority. I believe they are wasting their time because that minority is too volatile to court. Bungie mostly knew that. Try and beat up on me and my opinions all you want, Halo will not change because of it.

 

I'd still give H4 a 7/10.  I'm mostly happy with it, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed with what isn't done correctly.

 

Edited to add:  There are plenty of folks that feel more or less how I feel about it as well out there that don't post either, if you want to go down that route.  I do appreciate more how you're trying your best to temper your dislike of the competitive community, though.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 16:16 (Reply to #11)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Why not?  Because you're happy with the product?  What about the people that aren't?  Are we simply to take a seat and let it be?  If the people they hired didn't like Halo for some reason and they had a profound effect on its final version, we absolutely should care.  

I am not the only person on 2old2play to be somewhat or mostly happy with Halo 4. Don't single me out.A lot of people who like Halo 4 don't post here or anywhere. Basically I am one of the rare ones that's comes in here to fight with you and others and the hyperbole train. Most people in MM are playing Infinty settings. The old ways are dead except for 343i pandering to a vocal minority. I believe they are wasting their time because that minority is too volatile to court. Bungie mostly knew that. Try and beat up on me and my opinions all you want, Halo will not change because of it.

 

I'd still give H4 a 7/10.  I'm mostly happy with it, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed with what isn't done correctly.

 

Edited to add:  There are plenty of folks that feel more or less how I feel about it as well out there that don't post either, if you want to go down that route.  I do appreciate more how you're trying your best to temper your dislike of the competitive community, though.

Clarification on your competitive community comment. I've enjoyed my gaming with the most competitive players on this site. I do not dislike these people. I wish there was time enough to play with everybody, including the competitive crowd. The forums are quite a different beast. I really do dislike the forum battles. I like my Halo 'my way' so here I am. Some days are better than others.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 16:23 (Reply to #12)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Why not?  Because you're happy with the product?  What about the people that aren't?  Are we simply to take a seat and let it be?  If the people they hired didn't like Halo for some reason and they had a profound effect on its final version, we absolutely should care.  

I am not the only person on 2old2play to be somewhat or mostly happy with Halo 4. Don't single me out.A lot of people who like Halo 4 don't post here or anywhere. Basically I am one of the rare ones that's comes in here to fight with you and others and the hyperbole train. Most people in MM are playing Infinty settings. The old ways are dead except for 343i pandering to a vocal minority. I believe they are wasting their time because that minority is too volatile to court. Bungie mostly knew that. Try and beat up on me and my opinions all you want, Halo will not change because of it.

 

I'd still give H4 a 7/10.  I'm mostly happy with it, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed with what isn't done correctly.

 

Edited to add:  There are plenty of folks that feel more or less how I feel about it as well out there that don't post either, if you want to go down that route.  I do appreciate more how you're trying your best to temper your dislike of the competitive community, though.

Clarification on your competitive community comment. I've enjoyed my gaming with the most competitive players on this site. I do not dislike these people. I wish there was time enough to play with everybody, including the competitive crowd. The forums are quite a different beast. I really do dislike the forum battles. I like my Halo 'my way' so here I am. Some days are better than others.

 

I know you've made some comments before about how you don't like the competitive community, or the MLG community, or whatever the flavor of the week is.  

 

In any case, we're getting pretty far afield from the topic.  Halo 4 is a pretty solid game, and a lot of the problems associated with it are because it is (fairly) being compared to its predecessors.  If this were Halo 1, we'd be talking about what a great game it is, and how we're looking forward to its sequel.  Now, we're looking forward to its sequel so they can fix all the problems they created when making it and get back to basics.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 15:53
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Ah, the old 'everyone is playing infinity gametypes' argument.  Heard it before and probably won't be the last time I hear it.  You're right, the majority of CURRENT players are playing infinity gametypes.  What about those that abandoned Reach and H4 due to the 'new' ways?  It's a rather large number seeing as how H4 can barely crack the top 5 of live.  I don't know what those people would play, but while the 'old' ways may be dead, the 'new' ways are killing Halo 4.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 16:03 (Reply to #14)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:

Ah, the old 'everyone is playing infinity gametypes' argument.  Heard it before and probably won't be the last time I hear it.  You're right, the majority of CURRENT players are playing infinity gametypes.  What about those that abandoned Reach and H4 due to the 'new' ways?  It's a rather large number seeing as how H4 can barely crack the top 5 of live.  I don't know what those people would play, but while the 'old' ways may be dead, the 'new' ways are killing Halo 4.

The one thing we do agree on is the current population is low. After that, it's hyperbole. I don't know why the population is low and you don't either. Perhaps people left because Halo 4 isn't new or different enough. We do know more people in MM are playing Infinity settings. A fact that has to be accepted if not understood.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 21:46
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Frankie in fire control mode. Wasting his time. The Internet is too stupid to understand.

Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55635096&postcount=160
Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55636760&postcount=173

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 23:12 (Reply to #16)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Frankie in fire control mode. Wasting his time. The Internet is too stupid to understand.

Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55635096&postcount=160
Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55636760&postcount=173

 

When you say stupid things, you have to either double down or walk them back.  He's walking them back.  He's not doing anything he doesn't have to do.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 08:27 (Reply to #17)
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Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Frankie in fire control mode. Wasting his time. The Internet is too stupid to understand.

Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55635096&postcount=160
Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55636760&postcount=173

 

When you say stupid things, you have to either double down or walk them back.  He's walking them back.  He's not doing anything he doesn't have to do.

What does this mean? Poker terms? Also, I agree. 343i should just shut up. Too many in the communities have been waiting to burn them at the stake and there they are, giving them fuel. 343i seems to have too much time on its hands at the moment.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:25 (Reply to #18)
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DEEP_NNN wrote:

Dixon_Tufar wrote:

DEEP_NNN wrote:

Frankie in fire control mode. Wasting his time. The Internet is too stupid to understand.

Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55635096&postcount=160
Quote:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=55636760&postcount=173

 

When you say stupid things, you have to either double down or walk them back.  He's walking them back.  He's not doing anything he doesn't have to do.

What does this mean? Poker terms? Also, I agree. 343i should just shut up. Too many in the communities have been waiting to burn them at the stake and there they are, giving them fuel. 343i seems to have too much time on its hands at the moment.

 

Doubling down is more of a general gambling term, but it essentially means that you like what you have currently, see a time to capitalize, and want to put more money at stake, because the odds seem in your favor.  Walking it back is simply referring to saying something, and then needing to backpedal in order to more clearly define exactly it was you said or meant to say.  Essentially, it's an attempt to disavow the words you previously said, or an attempt to disavow words previously attributed to you or even an attempt to be able to rephrase it more clearly, or in a more PR-friendly way.

I'm perfectly okay with 343 doing more introspection.  Halo 4 is still a pretty positive effort, and they went a while towards fixing a few things that were vexing the franchise for a while, but also opened up other cans of worms.  The only things I am (still) mad at are their inability to interact with the community, their movement towards the casual end of the spectrum, and the lack of movement, even though the need for movement in the game was correctly identified pretty quickly in the game's lifespan.

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 22:51
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Sounds like Frankie is "too stupid" to have used a better choice of words. Hell, a high school dropout could phrase it better than what Frankie put forth.
Sat, 04/27/2013 - 08:18 (Reply to #20)
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OMGaLaserPewPew wrote:
Sounds like Frankie is "too stupid" to have used a better choice of words. Hell, a high school dropout could phrase it better than what Frankie put forth.
I agree. The whole shitload of them at 343i are a little too full of themselves and can't stop stopping about their Great Journey. Would they please shutup already. They're only making things worse. That's why I referenced Bungie earlier. At times they just let the community eat silence and other times told them to bugar-off. Granted, the retarded, yet more experienced Internet is probably too much even for Bungie now. Mark my words, no matter how good Destiny is, the Internet is going to try and tear it down. I digress.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:26
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Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:42
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Frankie could have explained his quote by replacing X and Y with more specifics, but for his reasoning (did not want to say the reason, did not want to single the people or peoples out, did not want to add more fuel to the fire,  etc.) he chose to not be more specific. What would also be interesting to find out is if those person/persons are still around...

 

As far as it being hyperbole, I did not exagerate, manipulate, embellish or overstate what he is quoted as saying. He later (in the neogaf postings) pointed out that the number or even role of the person or persons that hated Halo because of X (which just as well could mean a small insignificant part of Halo or the entire game itself), Frankie chose not to clarify for his reasons.

I am hoping it was this reason: the animator responsible for the anatomical makeup of Cortana hated that her bewbies in previous Halo's were not as spectacular as he/she could make them. So they chose to correct that. But I am willing to bet that is not the case.

 

The true end result of what they have learned or realized what did and did not work in H4 will be in/aded or removed in H5. I just interested in what reasoning or excusses they will come out with if we have a carbon copy of H4 with different maps, new armor, and continuation of the campaign.

 

I am calling it now we will see this one, "We wanted to do more with the game, but having to use unfamiliar hardware really hampered the process" and yes 343 will not be the only dev using that excuse.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:41 (Reply to #23)
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Lbsutke wrote:

As far as it being hyperbole, I did not exagerate, manipulate, embellish or overstate what he is quoted as saying.

Actually, the exaggeration was in the truncation of information, thus causing an enhanced implication of negativity in the segmented statement which remained. I.E. In his community, (LBSUTKE kills small dogs) that are infected with rabies. Not a very good example but perhaps you see what I mean. The Internet was and still is exploding with "We hired people who hated Halo". The Internet won't let go of this truncated statement. The uninformed don't read the articles and the informed, who have a chip on their shoulders, exacerbate the problem. It's mob mentality at it's finest (sarcasm). I had already seen what was happening on the Internet and when you made your post I saw a similar truncation and stepped in with more information so those who don't have time to follow the links could see a bigger picture.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:52
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That's it.  I'm starting a thread about why LB hates dogs, and clearly must love cats.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 16:03
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I can understand the thought process by Frankie, but they need people who understand the Halo universe and how things can be better. Most of us Halo fans could see problems right off the bat, why things work and why things don't, but if your thought process is outside the universe you can miss totally obvious miscues.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 16:12 (Reply to #26)
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LegendcalledJim wrote:

I can understand the thought process by Frankie, but they need people who understand the Halo universe and how things can be better. Most of us Halo fans could see problems right off the bat, why things work and why things don't, but if your thought process is outside the universe you can miss totally obvious miscues.

Frankie thought SMG starts were awesome in H2.  Do I really need to say any more?

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