2old2play sat down with Jeff Tunnell (Garage Games founder) who is currently helping to shape the world of Xbox 360 arcade and indie developers.
Jeff Tunnell, a co-founder of Dynamix in 1984, helped found GarageGames in 2000. Jeff has an extensive background in game development including A-10 Tank Killer, Red Baron, The Incredible Machine, Tribes, Trophy Bass, Marble Blast, Betrayal at Krondor, and many more. Today you can find Jeff at GarageGames working new titles and building the Torque Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and the Torque Game Builder.
I was given the opportunity to talk with Jeff about some of his older games, newer games, and how he feels about the gaming market. If you find yourself stuck in a game developer bake-off this is the guy you want to be teamed with!
Your wikipedia entry shows that you are credited with some of the best games in the industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Tunnell), what game were you most proud of?
In a lot of ways, that is like asking which of my kids I like the best. But, if you are going to hold me to the fire, I would have to say:
The Incredible Machine: A simple idea (build machines that look like Rube Goldberg contraptions) that is still fun today.
Tribes: Brought a lot of innovation to FPS genre, i.e. teams, in-game server browser, etc. that Unreal is just now catching up to.
Trophy Bass: Invented a genre. Nobody believed in the game until it became a huge seller. Marble Blast: Our first game at GarageGames. Bundled with all OSX machines, one of the first Indie titles on the XB360 to become the #1 seller.
Having co-founded Dynamix back in the day, and now continuing your experiences with GarageGames, what would you say has become the most challenging aspect of developing new games compared to the late 80’s early 90’s?
It is not harder to develop games now than in the past. In fact, it is much easier with tools and technologies like our Torque Game Builder. However, in some genres customer expectations have exceeded the ease of creation, so it still costs more to make games now.
It seems that more and more games are all eye candy and less game content. What are your thoughts on today’s “graphic intense” gaming?
This is an extension of the above answer. I am not a fan of graphics or eye candy. I have to admit, I like what simple shaders can do to make a game look crisper or more fun, but I am absolutely not a fan of more and more characters with crappy voice acting and crappy story line. I am not a fan of having every nose hair and bead of sweat on my football players when that effort could be put into new types of game play. I am a fan of fun games. Especially fun games that don't require monthly payments and massive amounts of my life energy to play. In other words, I want my fun to be FUN!
The complexity of games has risen a great deal in the last twenty years, making it more difficult for a few independent programmers to make a full game release. Do you believe new outlets like Xbox Live Arcade will help grow the independent game development community? Or do you think Microsoft will be very restrictive on what games they “publish” on the marketplace?
Xbox Live is the future of game distribution. I am proud of the fact that we have Marble Blast Ultra in that channel and that it has been the number one grossing title for several months, and it is continuing to sell at a great pace. I don't think Indies will be locked out of this marketplace, but you will have to be a great developer to survive (check out my blog article on this very subject here: http://makeitbigingames.com/blog/?p=15 ). Microsoft seems very committed to allowing a lot of different kinds of games in this channel.
An independent game company can save a great deal of time using “off the shelf” programming interfaces and frameworks such as the Torque Engine. Do you find more indie companies using your product or is the demand higher from commercial companies?
Demand for our Torque products comes from Indies, education, and serious games/simulations. Now that we have our Torque Shader Engine for the Xbox 360, we are selling a lot more to commercial developers as well.
The Torque Engine has many development platform targets (Macintosh, Linux, Microsoft Windows), is it difficult to sustain support for so many operating systems?
We share a lot of core code and have dedicated teams for the different products. It is in our DNA to be cross platform, so we don't see it as a burden.
The Torque Engine is powerful and supplies a great groundwork for game companies. Is this your company’s primary product or is GarageGames more focused on publishing titles of their own?
Currently, we make more money from our technology offerings than our games. We are expanding our game development efforts, and with new markets on consoles, hand-helds, and phones opening up, the percentage of revenue from games will increase.
Do you plan to bring other GarageGames' games - like Zap!, Gish, Rocket Bowl, Orbz, or ThinkTanks - to Xbox Live Arcade?
Yes to some of those. I can't discuss our future plans too much.
Does GarageGames have any support or initiative to help Indie game companies get published on the Xbox 360 (like your own Marble Ultra Blast)? For instance, does implementing the Torque engine make it easier to receive acceptance to Microsoft’s Xbox marketplace?
Torque is very accessible at a price anybody can afford. Our suggestion for getting noticed is to prototype your idea on the Torque Shader Engine on a hot computer and graphics card with USB Xbox 360 controllers. You cannot get Microsoft’s attention without a prototype. Without their attention, you cannot get a slot approved.
When Marble Blast Ultra hit the 360 Marketplace everyone I know was playing it. Did you expect such a simple game concept to be such a hit?
When we released Marble Blast on the PC, we knew it was a great game that could not find its audience. Yahoo, Real, and Shockwave players that were used to bubble poppers did not know what to do with a marble based FPS game. We persisted and sold a lot from our own GarageGames Game Store, won an OEM bundle deal with Apple to have Marble Blast bundled with every OSX computer in 2005, brought it to Xbox Live on original Xbox, etc. By the time we were tapped by Microsoft to do a multi-player version for Xbox 360, we were very confident in the game. When we were playing the multi-player version in-house, we had quiet confidence that we would go to the top of the charts once it was released. Even with that confidence, we have been surprised by the sales of the game.
Are there any future plans to support the Torque Engine on Playstation 3 or Nintendo’s Wii console?
Again, I can't comment on future or unannounced products.
Can we look forward to local multiplayer play for Marble Blast Ultra so the family can play together?
Not in the near future. This would require a new version, re-certification, etc.
Will more multiplayer maps be released for Marble Blast Ultra, as downloadable content for the Xbox 360? Without making an announcement, I think this one has a high probability.
Has there been thought to adding more multiplayer modes like a downhill race or checkpoint point racing? Perhaps Black Diamond as a multiplayer level?
I can't really comment on anything specific.
Red Baron was one of my all-time favorite games; I would love to see a re-make of this game with the Torque Engine. Are there any plans for a great historical flight game like ‘Red Baron’ on your development roadmap?
GarageGames is not working on a flight simulator, but Phil Carlisle, formerly of Team 17, is working on Air Ace using the Torque Shader Engine. More information here: http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1605/10538
Besides GarageGames, what other development/publishing company do you believe to be a great addition to the video game market? Is there a development/publishing/company that you look up to or highly respect?
Of course Blizzard makes great games, but, to be honest, I don't follow most of the AAA companies. It is a totally different world, and most of the games are of little interest to me. Will Wright still makes great games, and I will play anything he comes out with.
Your business model is rather unorthodox compared to many of the big game companies out there, such as Electronic Arts. You seem to center your efforts on independent game developers and cater to that community. Do you find that the Indie developers have more passion and innovation for gaming or do you just like the challenge of being the underdog while big corporations spend millions on advertising and ship twenty titles a year?
It is none of those. I truly believe that innovation will come from the Indie market. As tools mature, and distribution mechanisms become clear, I absolutely believe that the games business will be a lot more like making music than making movies. Give me five great developers and 18 months, and we will blow you away on any platform. Great fun is not about more characters, or making movies out of our games, or adding rap songs, or sequels, or mainstream licenses. Fun is about great gameplay, innovation, and thinking about how to entertain your audience by using your own "voice." I can see seeds of this idea already starting to form. I see great Indie developers with passion in their hearts and a great vision of fun games. The big publishers will continue to make the big games that need to be made. An Indie cannot create World of Warcraft, but not all games need to be WoW.
Can you give us a little example of the GarageGames work environment? Are you all wearing geeky shirts, skateboarding down the hallways, and playing football at lunch or are you more business professional?
It's all shorts and laid back. Right now we are over 30 guys crammed into about 3,000 sq.ft. (do the math, it probably isn't even legal), but this week we are moving into some old warehouse space that will give us a little more breathing room.
As a small company, do you find yourself working long “start up” hours seven days a week or do you work a normal “nine to five” schedule?
I don't really feel a line between work and not-work. It is just what I do. Not all of the hours are at the office, but the brain never turns off when you are involved in a great company that is part of your life.
When you’re not working what video games do you find yourself playing? Are you a PC or console fan?
I used to be PC, but Xbox 360 is awesome. I look forward to Wii. I'm not a good gamer, and it feels like there are few games for me. I think that will change with sites like yours popping up. Not everybody is 16 years old with reflexes of lightning. I am working on some games that will show the kind of thing I want to play. No announcements, and you won't see them for over a year.
What was the first game that you played which made you say “hey, I’d love to do this as a career”?
It was so long ago that you would not even know. My first game for the Apple II was Temple Of Apshai, a role playing game. All of the games blew me away, and everything was so fresh and new. It was exciting times. We had to make games that relied on fun and imagination, not bling, bling graphics.
Do you have any thoughts about the Massive Multiplayer Online (MMO) market? Is this an area that you would be interested in working in? Any thoughts on gaming which makes a person pay monthly? It seems to be a fairly profitable gaming market, but there are so few good independent MMO games.
I would be interested and actually have a couple of ideas on the drawing board that I am exploring. Of course, they would not look like MMO's to a standard gamer. An Indie cannot compete in this market. But, I have some ideas that could potentially have more people playing than most MMO's get. No more on this at this time though.
When you’re not playing video games, what other hobbies do you enjoy?
Riding motorcycles (I own a motorcycle shop). Playing in a rock band. Olympic Weightlifting.
For those inspiring developers that want to build their own masterpiece Indie game, do you have any advice or motivational words for them?
Check out my blog at http://www.makeitbigingames.com for lots and lots of motivational words as well as practical advice on how to break into and survive in the games business. Other than that, keep it simple, get it done, and ship something. Focus on the fun, not the technology. People will find you and opportunities will open up.
For more on GarageGames, Jeff Tunnell, and making independent games please check out:
http://www.garagegames.com
http://www.makeitbigingames.com (Jeff’s Blog)
Jeff Tunnell, a co-founder of Dynamix in 1984, helped found GarageGames in 2000. Jeff has an extensive background in game development including A-10 Tank Killer, Red Baron, The Incredible Machine, Tribes, Trophy Bass, Marble Blast, Betrayal at Krondor, and many more. Today you can find Jeff at GarageGames working new titles and building the Torque Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and the Torque Game Builder.
I was given the opportunity to talk with Jeff about some of his older games, newer games, and how he feels about the gaming market. If you find yourself stuck in a game developer bake-off this is the guy you want to be teamed with!
Your wikipedia entry shows that you are credited with some of the best games in the industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Tunnell), what game were you most proud of?
In a lot of ways, that is like asking which of my kids I like the best. But, if you are going to hold me to the fire, I would have to say:
The Incredible Machine: A simple idea (build machines that look like Rube Goldberg contraptions) that is still fun today.
Tribes: Brought a lot of innovation to FPS genre, i.e. teams, in-game server browser, etc. that Unreal is just now catching up to.
Trophy Bass: Invented a genre. Nobody believed in the game until it became a huge seller. Marble Blast: Our first game at GarageGames. Bundled with all OSX machines, one of the first Indie titles on the XB360 to become the #1 seller.
Having co-founded Dynamix back in the day, and now continuing your experiences with GarageGames, what would you say has become the most challenging aspect of developing new games compared to the late 80’s early 90’s?
It is not harder to develop games now than in the past. In fact, it is much easier with tools and technologies like our Torque Game Builder. However, in some genres customer expectations have exceeded the ease of creation, so it still costs more to make games now.
It seems that more and more games are all eye candy and less game content. What are your thoughts on today’s “graphic intense” gaming?
This is an extension of the above answer. I am not a fan of graphics or eye candy. I have to admit, I like what simple shaders can do to make a game look crisper or more fun, but I am absolutely not a fan of more and more characters with crappy voice acting and crappy story line. I am not a fan of having every nose hair and bead of sweat on my football players when that effort could be put into new types of game play. I am a fan of fun games. Especially fun games that don't require monthly payments and massive amounts of my life energy to play. In other words, I want my fun to be FUN!
The complexity of games has risen a great deal in the last twenty years, making it more difficult for a few independent programmers to make a full game release. Do you believe new outlets like Xbox Live Arcade will help grow the independent game development community? Or do you think Microsoft will be very restrictive on what games they “publish” on the marketplace?
Xbox Live is the future of game distribution. I am proud of the fact that we have Marble Blast Ultra in that channel and that it has been the number one grossing title for several months, and it is continuing to sell at a great pace. I don't think Indies will be locked out of this marketplace, but you will have to be a great developer to survive (check out my blog article on this very subject here: http://makeitbigingames.com/blog/?p=15 ). Microsoft seems very committed to allowing a lot of different kinds of games in this channel.
An independent game company can save a great deal of time using “off the shelf” programming interfaces and frameworks such as the Torque Engine. Do you find more indie companies using your product or is the demand higher from commercial companies?
Demand for our Torque products comes from Indies, education, and serious games/simulations. Now that we have our Torque Shader Engine for the Xbox 360, we are selling a lot more to commercial developers as well.
The Torque Engine has many development platform targets (Macintosh, Linux, Microsoft Windows), is it difficult to sustain support for so many operating systems?
We share a lot of core code and have dedicated teams for the different products. It is in our DNA to be cross platform, so we don't see it as a burden.
The Torque Engine is powerful and supplies a great groundwork for game companies. Is this your company’s primary product or is GarageGames more focused on publishing titles of their own?
Currently, we make more money from our technology offerings than our games. We are expanding our game development efforts, and with new markets on consoles, hand-helds, and phones opening up, the percentage of revenue from games will increase.
Do you plan to bring other GarageGames' games - like Zap!, Gish, Rocket Bowl, Orbz, or ThinkTanks - to Xbox Live Arcade?
Yes to some of those. I can't discuss our future plans too much.
Does GarageGames have any support or initiative to help Indie game companies get published on the Xbox 360 (like your own Marble Ultra Blast)? For instance, does implementing the Torque engine make it easier to receive acceptance to Microsoft’s Xbox marketplace?
Torque is very accessible at a price anybody can afford. Our suggestion for getting noticed is to prototype your idea on the Torque Shader Engine on a hot computer and graphics card with USB Xbox 360 controllers. You cannot get Microsoft’s attention without a prototype. Without their attention, you cannot get a slot approved.
When Marble Blast Ultra hit the 360 Marketplace everyone I know was playing it. Did you expect such a simple game concept to be such a hit?
When we released Marble Blast on the PC, we knew it was a great game that could not find its audience. Yahoo, Real, and Shockwave players that were used to bubble poppers did not know what to do with a marble based FPS game. We persisted and sold a lot from our own GarageGames Game Store, won an OEM bundle deal with Apple to have Marble Blast bundled with every OSX computer in 2005, brought it to Xbox Live on original Xbox, etc. By the time we were tapped by Microsoft to do a multi-player version for Xbox 360, we were very confident in the game. When we were playing the multi-player version in-house, we had quiet confidence that we would go to the top of the charts once it was released. Even with that confidence, we have been surprised by the sales of the game.
Are there any future plans to support the Torque Engine on Playstation 3 or Nintendo’s Wii console?
Again, I can't comment on future or unannounced products.
Can we look forward to local multiplayer play for Marble Blast Ultra so the family can play together?
Not in the near future. This would require a new version, re-certification, etc.
Will more multiplayer maps be released for Marble Blast Ultra, as downloadable content for the Xbox 360? Without making an announcement, I think this one has a high probability.
Has there been thought to adding more multiplayer modes like a downhill race or checkpoint point racing? Perhaps Black Diamond as a multiplayer level?
I can't really comment on anything specific.
Red Baron was one of my all-time favorite games; I would love to see a re-make of this game with the Torque Engine. Are there any plans for a great historical flight game like ‘Red Baron’ on your development roadmap?
GarageGames is not working on a flight simulator, but Phil Carlisle, formerly of Team 17, is working on Air Ace using the Torque Shader Engine. More information here: http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1605/10538
Besides GarageGames, what other development/publishing company do you believe to be a great addition to the video game market? Is there a development/publishing/company that you look up to or highly respect?
Of course Blizzard makes great games, but, to be honest, I don't follow most of the AAA companies. It is a totally different world, and most of the games are of little interest to me. Will Wright still makes great games, and I will play anything he comes out with.
Your business model is rather unorthodox compared to many of the big game companies out there, such as Electronic Arts. You seem to center your efforts on independent game developers and cater to that community. Do you find that the Indie developers have more passion and innovation for gaming or do you just like the challenge of being the underdog while big corporations spend millions on advertising and ship twenty titles a year?
It is none of those. I truly believe that innovation will come from the Indie market. As tools mature, and distribution mechanisms become clear, I absolutely believe that the games business will be a lot more like making music than making movies. Give me five great developers and 18 months, and we will blow you away on any platform. Great fun is not about more characters, or making movies out of our games, or adding rap songs, or sequels, or mainstream licenses. Fun is about great gameplay, innovation, and thinking about how to entertain your audience by using your own "voice." I can see seeds of this idea already starting to form. I see great Indie developers with passion in their hearts and a great vision of fun games. The big publishers will continue to make the big games that need to be made. An Indie cannot create World of Warcraft, but not all games need to be WoW.
Can you give us a little example of the GarageGames work environment? Are you all wearing geeky shirts, skateboarding down the hallways, and playing football at lunch or are you more business professional?
It's all shorts and laid back. Right now we are over 30 guys crammed into about 3,000 sq.ft. (do the math, it probably isn't even legal), but this week we are moving into some old warehouse space that will give us a little more breathing room.
As a small company, do you find yourself working long “start up” hours seven days a week or do you work a normal “nine to five” schedule?
I don't really feel a line between work and not-work. It is just what I do. Not all of the hours are at the office, but the brain never turns off when you are involved in a great company that is part of your life.
When you’re not working what video games do you find yourself playing? Are you a PC or console fan?
I used to be PC, but Xbox 360 is awesome. I look forward to Wii. I'm not a good gamer, and it feels like there are few games for me. I think that will change with sites like yours popping up. Not everybody is 16 years old with reflexes of lightning. I am working on some games that will show the kind of thing I want to play. No announcements, and you won't see them for over a year.
What was the first game that you played which made you say “hey, I’d love to do this as a career”?
It was so long ago that you would not even know. My first game for the Apple II was Temple Of Apshai, a role playing game. All of the games blew me away, and everything was so fresh and new. It was exciting times. We had to make games that relied on fun and imagination, not bling, bling graphics.
Do you have any thoughts about the Massive Multiplayer Online (MMO) market? Is this an area that you would be interested in working in? Any thoughts on gaming which makes a person pay monthly? It seems to be a fairly profitable gaming market, but there are so few good independent MMO games.
I would be interested and actually have a couple of ideas on the drawing board that I am exploring. Of course, they would not look like MMO's to a standard gamer. An Indie cannot compete in this market. But, I have some ideas that could potentially have more people playing than most MMO's get. No more on this at this time though.
When you’re not playing video games, what other hobbies do you enjoy?
Riding motorcycles (I own a motorcycle shop). Playing in a rock band. Olympic Weightlifting.
For those inspiring developers that want to build their own masterpiece Indie game, do you have any advice or motivational words for them?
Check out my blog at http://www.makeitbigingames.com for lots and lots of motivational words as well as practical advice on how to break into and survive in the games business. Other than that, keep it simple, get it done, and ship something. Focus on the fun, not the technology. People will find you and opportunities will open up.
For more on GarageGames, Jeff Tunnell, and making independent games please check out:
http://www.garagegames.com
http://www.makeitbigingames.com (Jeff’s Blog)
