feauturing article

X360: Gamer Score Whoring

by English_C6H6| Published: Friday, January 26 @ 01:02:52 EST
Is the Gamer Score evil? Well, according to the Pope, probably. But according to gamers? Are achievements a broken system that favor those with too much time and money or are they a way to increase game value and engage in friendly competition?

There seem to be two major schools of thought:

1. Gamer Score is a way of increasing playability and an easy way to reward gamers who go the extra mile. It's a way of seeing if you can meet challenges in a game and encouraging friendly competition in friends.

2. Gamer Score is just a big "whip it out" contest that favors those with too much time and too much money and no life. It has no bearing on life or if you are a "real" gamer, it's just a nonsense number that often favors Timmys and no-life losers.

There is also a third opinion, that can in no way be called a "school of thought":

3. OMFG!!one!! You're score is s0 low cuz your teh suxx0rs and Im the l33t r0xx3rz . b0w to m3 newb.

( Apologies to those who can actually understand this )

My opinion? I like it. It offers me:

  1. Real goals in games beyond beating the game. I think I get my extra $10 out of 360 games just in having Achievements. It makes want to play a little bit more, alittle bit longer to beat that challenge.
  2. A way for me to see where I am against other players. Not just a "whip it out" measure, but a way to say "No wonder I got schooled by him in GoW, his score in GoW is 6 times mine, he's obviously played it a lot more than me."
  3. A guide when looking for help. If I'm stuck on a certain point, I can scroll through my FL and look for someone who has already whipped a game and send them a note like "How the hell do I beat the Beserker when Dom just stands there waiting to get killed?" (Easy answer: do it in co-op.)
  4. Friendly competition. I can look at my friends around the country and say "Dang, he's killing me on Oblivion, I need to catch up." This helps me stay in contact with old friends I don't see anymore, as well as new ones I meet here.
  5. A little rush. Yes, I am an achievement junkie. Who doesn't get a tingle when they see this?

Oh, baby!

Best things that could be done to improve the system?

  1. Balancing. This is already happening. Look at achievement lists (such as this site) and compare current games such as GoW or R6:Vegas to initial games such as Burnout Revenge or King Kong.
  2. Realistic online achievements. I understand why achievements are in ranked matches, but make it easier to play FAIR ranked matches with people I don't hate.
  3. Don't break the mood. I love seeing that little icon, but sometimes it snaps me out of an immersive experience and reminds me that it's just a game. Be smart about when that pop-up happens. Don't interrupt important scenes with a pop-up, no matter how loved (I'm looking at you GoW and Oblivion).
  4. Drop the Arcade Demos. We all know why they are on there. Once you try a game, if you don't buy it, you automatically leave 200 points unfulfilled. That motivates buyers, but it stinks, just let us drop them. I hated Joust for XBLA, even though I loved the original, why punish my already pitiful score with another sandbag?



So what do you guys think about Achievements? Do they fulfill a larger part of the gaming experience for you? Sound off and let us know. Also, don't forget you can compare all your Achievements with every other member on the site HERE or compare just one game HERE.


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Reader Comments

Interesting Write Up... (Score: 1)
Posted By ImaginaryEngr76 on Friday, January 26 @ 07:06:44 EST
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I agree with many of your ideas for improvements, such as Balancing and Realistic Online Achievements. I'm not so sure about the example you used for Balancing, though - maybe it's just me, but I think that a lot of the achievements for Burnout Revenge are pretty damn hard and time consuming to get (King Kong, well that's another story). I'm torn on the Realistic Online Achievements - part of me wishes that you could get the achievements in Ranked or Player games in something like GoW or Lost Plant (Rainbow Six has a nice balance), but part of me sees why the restrict the achievements to Ranked games (to help cool boosting).


Balancing (Score: 1)
Posted By English_C6H6 on Friday, January 26 @ 11:39:00 EST
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That was my point exactly. The achievements for King Kong are known for being easy and looking at Burnout, it may be a good while before I get a single achievement. Neither one has balanced challenge with reward. One is too easy and the other can be frustrating.




Burnout took time but gets easier as you go (Score: 1)
Posted By godWHYme on Friday, January 26 @ 12:12:03 EST
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I never got celeb status though it wasn't hard at first because you just needed one freind to dl your clip, than delete and dl it again a few times, when the server is rest each month.

The achievements took me awhile but I loved the game.





Well, (Score: 1)
Posted By CrypticCat on Friday, January 26 @ 07:34:39 EST
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I don't care for the gamerpoints. It does not make me wanna take the off of work to get the last 10GP in a game you can in a manner of speaking only get by jumping naked through burning hoops while balancing a chinese meal for two on your butt and reciting 'War and Peace' backwards.

If the game is good and grabs my interest, I'll play it for a long time regardless. A nice excample here is Jewel Quest. I simply love that game and the GP thus come naturally by simply progressing through the game.

Games that hand out GP by requiring me to do same online-map 500 times over, or kill another bullshit amount of live-players in one on one matches quite probably don't even deserve that amount of playtime.



Burnout Revenge... Easy? (Score: 1)
Posted By FFDragonwarrior on Friday, January 26 @ 07:44:25 EST
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i wonder if we played the same game but my 900+ points in Burnout were EXTREMELY well earned, i only have 2 missing "100 takedowns between two friends" (loosely translated from my memories...it was worded better then that) and "all signature takedowns" (got bored, maybe another day ill try for it)...also i dont think $10 is worth achievements at all,ide rather keep my money and buy another game with which to have fun with then a game with meaningless points.

other then that i agree with you. ;)



Score Whore, gotta have More (Score: 1)
Posted By DrEsquire on Friday, January 26 @ 07:52:26 EST
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I like unlocking points, but I don't really worry much about it. In one year, my score is a mere 1255. This is mainly because I don't have a lot of time so I tend to play a small number of games, and you can only get the easy achievements once...

Personally I tend to avoid Ranked matches, I don't like to bring my team down when its "important!"



I dont care about GP (Score: 1)
Posted By MrParadox on Friday, January 26 @ 07:58:06 EST
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Being a recreational gamer, gamerscore is almost pointless from my point of view. There are very few games that I actually played all the way through. Getting through to the end of a game just doesnt appeal to me, and getting achievements for doing so equally does not appeal to me.

And in response to 4. at the bottom of your article, I disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Why would I buy a game that I cant play first? I always try the demo first, and if I enjoy it alot, I buy it. Simple as that. What is this "if you dont buy it, you automatically leave 200 points unfulfilled." ??? What the hell does that mean?? Demos are not going anywhere...yes, it is a big marketing ploy, but its a damn good one IMO.


Arcade Demos (Score: 1)
Posted By ImaginaryEngr76 on Friday, January 26 @ 08:24:08 EST
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I think the point that the author was trying to make with the arcade demos is that when you try a demo (and not purchase it) the arcade demo still shows up under your list of "Total Number of Games Played". To many people, it's the ratio of points to number of games played that is more important than the actual Gamerscore (a person who has played 5 games and has a gamerscore of 2000 may have more clout than a person whose played 15 games and has a gamerscore of 2500). So, if you try ever demo of every arcade game, you will have a bunch of games show up under your list of games played that says "0/200". Many people feel like this is MS trying to get under the skin of GS Whores by not wanting to see that dead space there.

The author's arguement was that he didn't believe that arcade demos should show up under your "Games Played" since you haven't actually purchased them.




Re: Arcade Demos (Score: 1)
Posted By JesterOZ on Sunday, January 28 @ 14:54:30 EST
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Ah, that makes sense. I read and re-read #4 a couple of times and was still a bit befuddled. :) I definitely agree that demos should not show up in your "Games Played" list. It doesn't bother me in terms of "0/200 points", but if I tried a game and didn't like it, I don't want that game's icon showing up on my gamercard. Weird, yes, but it's a nitpicky pet peeve. :)




I consider myself a casual gamer (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Friday, January 26 @ 08:43:12 EST
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If not by nature, by time. I've not got that much time to play games, but I LOVE the achievement system. I've played through games I never thought I'd finish due to "Gamer ADD" but I did.

I try to get 1000 of 1000 whenever possible, but it rare is now adays. I don't care for ranked games and I don't have time for that much multiplayer (so everyone else kicks my ass). So I don't have the skills to obtain many of the online achievements.

A few I really enjoyed getting were in Table Tennis, Oblivion, CoD2 and PGR3. I didn't get them all in most of those cases (except CoD2) but it was well worth trying. I know I would have put all those games down well beyond their time if it wasn't for "achievement unlocked."

CodeMonkey





I do care, no I don't, wait... (Score: 1)
Posted By GroovyElm on Friday, January 26 @ 08:20:10 EST
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I think achievements were a great idea in the design of the system/game experience. It will lead a lot of people to try new games to try to increase their score. But for me, I go back and forth on this. I see games where the achievements are kind of easy, Lego Star Wars for instance, and I think I don't want to trade this in yet because I can still get some points out of it. But I never end up having enough time to put in to go for it. I guess I'm just not hardcore.



I like them and I don't!!!! (Score: 1)
Posted By Angelito on Friday, January 26 @ 08:28:26 EST
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I liked COD2 because I was proud of my 1000, but never did it on the COD3 because of the online ones (completed veteran and considered it done).
If my achivements are dependent on me I like it. If it is dependent on a leaderboard (like some for Chromehunds) all it does is atract boosters and cheaters to the game.



Full report soon (Score: 1)
Posted By BrokenDesign on Friday, January 26 @ 08:47:31 EST
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I was going to be covering this same story in the next magazine issue. A little different angle, but very similar. I get a pretty good thrill from achievement points and it certainly does give you something to pursue other than beating the game and playing online. Now you're playing for certain purposes to accomplish certain goals. It's definitely nicer now that achievement points are more pointed than simply beating a level and beating the game with developers getting a little more creative. Your suggestions for improvement are pretty good, I'd like to add in one about let us get achievement points in unranked matches. It's really hard to get those achievements when you're playing Gears of War and you're just a casual player up against hardcore people who you simply can't beat. I'd like to be on an equal playing field and get rewarded for my victories than having to struggle through ranked matches where I'm terribly outclassed, having to hope my teammates are really good and I can piggyback off of them. That is all for now.



I enjoy them! (Score: 1)
Posted By Stryker927 on Friday, January 26 @ 08:47:32 EST
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I am around a modest 3,000 score right now and I have had my XBOX for over a year. But I agree with each of your points about why you like them and that is also exactly how I use them to my advantage. I don't usually ever get 100% of the achivements in any game but I do look through and try to find a good chunk that I think I realistically acheive. It's kind of like a secondary challenge to beating the "story" of the game and then to "overall" beat the entire game or challenge. :)



achievements (Score: 1)
Posted By Oiche_Shamhna on Friday, January 26 @ 09:22:21 EST
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I agree. I like them. I am 39 years old married with children. I play when I can, and often sleep is what I exchange for game time. What I like is it gives me a way to see how I have actually spent my game time and what accomplishments I have made. I don't sit around and worry that there are teenagers out there scoring a ton more because of the time they have. I have no doubt my son who has less than me would in most games would take me out. He just hasn't been on live very long. I see them as a good source of entertainment I even post mine on my myspace page and webpage and the fact that the number is unimpressive isn't the point it shows that at 39 I am still out there and haven't let the barriers of age deter me from getting out there and playing. I give props to MS for allowing those of us that suck at FPS but live in RPG's to still get out there and get points.



I like them (Score: 1)
Posted By doorgunnerjgs on Friday, January 26 @ 09:25:21 EST
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I like them, it makes the games more enjoyable to have other goals than the obvious level movement. I am not going to try to get all the points and I don't really want to compare myself with others (I already KNOW I suck). But I do let it get me back into games that I have set aside to see if I can get 'just one more' achievement which adds value to the games I have sitting on my shelf.



I ignore them. (Score: 1)
Posted By 40z on Friday, January 26 @ 09:30:01 EST
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But they are basically value added I guess. I don't think they hurt, per se, so I am abivalent. I would get worked up only if I thought they were really interfering with the development process.


I agree (Score: 1)
Posted By DrPlague on Friday, January 26 @ 10:22:13 EST
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They are nice to have, but in the end the points really don't mean much at all.





I like the achievement system (Score: 1)
Posted By RogueRedneck on Friday, January 26 @ 09:31:25 EST
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I love to unlock achievements. It always gives me a sense of accomplishment when I unlock something new. Just a couple of nights ago, I unexpectedly unlocked the "Marksman" achievement in RB6 and it made me happy. I think Microsoft made a very smart move by including the achievement system.

Also, I don't go out of my way to get achievements but I will put forth a little extra effort in order to receive the points. That is why I tackled RB6 on Realistic instead of Normal.



XBLA Demos (Score: 1)
Posted By Punisher138 on Friday, January 26 @ 09:40:57 EST
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I totally agree that its bullshit that you get 0/200 automatically by downloading a demo. Thats why I never download XBLA demos anymore. Fuck you M$!! Blow me! You suck!!



See... (Score: 1)
Posted By jasontroyhimself on Friday, January 26 @ 09:54:48 EST
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=)

I told ya.. as soon as I read your blog, I knew this had potential to be front page.
Great job man.

-jas



Entertaining, But Not Essential (Score: 1)
Posted By TexasTwister55 on Friday, January 26 @ 10:16:18 EST
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I must admit I like to see that "Achievement Unlocked" pop up, but I don't sit up all night to get them. I also don't judge others I play by the points. I've been slobber-knocked by someone with a lower score, and I've beaten those with much higher scores. I enjoy them, but I play for the fun. They are just a bonus for me.



Achievements are influential (Score: 1)
Posted By fecknmental on Friday, January 26 @ 10:24:49 EST
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I for one came to this forum cause i was sick and tried of playing idiots online. Achievements are trying to puch us into this because simply to get teh vast majoriy of achievements you have to play ranked games?
I have the majority of GoW achievemnts that i can get in campaign mode and none for the online stuff why? Simple really i wont play ranked games why should i get a headache for a couple fo weeks solid to get a few hundred achievements?

I persoonally have 1158 or so points in one year i have a couple of games that only have 1 achievemnt and it dosent bother me these games were crap and no matter how many or easy the points are to get i wont do it if i cant stand the game. Example King Kong easiest game to get the full 1000 however i only have 300/400 cause i got bored and fed up.



Like 'em (Score: 1)
Posted By saucerfreak2012 on Friday, January 26 @ 13:11:30 EST
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They are incentive for my co-op bud and I to go back thru gears and find all the cog-tags, etc. Gives us something else to do beside just finishing the game. If we don't want/care about an achievement we don't have to get it to finish the game...

As long as having a certain gamerscore is never used as a privelige to access content, (instead of just bragging rights) I think it's a great perk.



Good Write-up! (Score: 1)
Posted By Castlemonster on Friday, January 26 @ 14:36:48 EST
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I like the achievements for many of the reasons you note:
1. It gives me a slight sense of accomplishment.
2. It helps me see how much others have played a game to know if my lacking skill is warranted or not :)
3. I'll ocassionally try to finish something I normally wouldn't have. I was really happy to get the Veteran for CoD2.
4. I enjoy seeing my score go up over time

I do not:
1. Worry about how fast I increase my score or how it compares to others.
2. Worry if I miss some achievements.

Regarding the pop-up... I like it as a nice surprise (because sometimes I don't realize when I'm close to one). BUT they should give us the option to turn them off.


Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By fecknmental on Friday, January 26 @ 22:53:59 EST
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I am sure i have seen somewhere in the options to remove alerts etc but that includes online friend notification as well :(





Fix online Achievements (Score: 1)
Posted By TANK on Friday, January 26 @ 17:05:19 EST
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The problem with Online achievements is one of two things. First is people boost to get there, so they get together with their buds and trade off letting each other pwn them to get the achievement. Or they're in ranked play and rnked play is where you get with the scum of live to bang out achievements. Problem is ranked play is where people are concerned with leaderboards. The leaderboard whores get affected by people playing for achievements because the goals don't always align. So this drastically affects online play.

They should make online achievements doable no matter if it's ranked or player match. Don't force me to play with Live Scum because i'm an achievement whore, i don't need that experience. Or just do away with online achievements becuas either way you try and do it, people figure out how to boost for them. You can't boost in 1p.



Cool .... but meaningless (Score: 1)
Posted By FlobberWorm on Friday, January 26 @ 18:50:22 EST
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Like anyone else I love to see "achievement unlocked" pop up on the screen, but I also think gamerscore "whoring" is ridiculous. With gamertag recovery, gamesaves and whatever else idiots are doing these days to get a higher gamerscore I rarely notice what someones score is anymore because they have become totally meaningless.


It cracks me up the lengths people will go to in order to make that number bigger. Having the highest "visible" score in Hexic marathon, I have been asked probably 10x by total strangers if I will "get the poohbah" for them (I won't).

And I know that LOTS of people actually PAY others to do it for them! (Check out the Mutant Storm Reloaded forum at xbox.com.... apparently a couple of the elite MSR players have made a KILLING charging other people stupid enough to be willing to pay for an achievement!)

That being said, I think the idea is total genius by MS!

Oh and am I REALLY the only gamer that actually ENJOYED King Kong? :)



Achievements (Score: 1)
Posted By SpicyBonedog on Friday, January 26 @ 20:09:52 EST
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It is not the gamerpoints themselves that are the insentive but it gives you another task to complete, especially achievements that aren't just for beating a level, but for doing some random task in the game that you may never have tried to do otherwise.



I'm an addict (Score: 1)
Posted By h0ngkong_pho0ey on Sunday, January 28 @ 00:58:29 EST
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I play a lot more now than I used to going for a higher gamerscore, but dunno how some people find the time. I think it was a great idea by microsoft but like others find the achievements should be more balanced. For me it does add replay value as I'll hold onto a few more games to get the last points out before I trade em in



I (Score: 1)
Posted By punkerjim on Tuesday, January 30 @ 00:31:01 EST
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i love that sound and little pop up when you unlock an achievement.

i finally passed the 5,000 mark on my gamerscore but i'm proud to say that i actually earned all of them. i did not cheat to get a single point.

for the people with the 100,000+ scores, they need to find something better to do with their time.



Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By PhantomVI on Tuesday, January 30 @ 15:21:49 EST
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I like 'em. There's a sense of acheivement and it's fun to see how I'm doing against friends. Luckily I can draw a line, though, and avoid boosting to get my score higher, And I can put down a game if I'm bored with it even if I have a few achievemnts left. Of course, there are games like Oblivion where it's absolutely worth it to get all 1000 points.



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Balancing. This is already happening. Look at action lists (such as this site) and study underway games much as GoW or R6:Vegas to initial games much as Burnout Revenge or King Kong brain dumps. Realistic online achievements. I see why achievements are in hierarchical matches, but attain it easier to endeavor FAIR hierarchical matches with folks I don't hate. Don't fortuity the mood. I fuck sight that lowercase icon, but sometimes it snaps me discover of an immersive undergo and reminds me exam preparation that it's meet a game. Be sharp most when that pop-up happens. Don't move significant scenes with a pop-up, no concern how idolized (I'm hunting at you GoW and Oblivion). Drop the Arcade Demos. We every understand why they are on there. Once you HP0-D07 dumps aim a game, if you don't acquire it, you automatically yield 200 points unfulfilled. That motivates buyers, but it stinks, meet allow us modify them. I hated Joust for XBLA, modify though I idolized the original, why penalise my already pitiful reason with added sandbag?



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