feauturing article

The Pope Condemns Video Games

by codemonkey| Published: Thursday, January 25 @ 10:55:43 EST
Pope Benedict XVI frowns upon a society that plays video games calling it a "pervasive influence" on our children...
"Any trend to produce programs and products - including animated movies and video games - which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivilization of human sexuality is a perversion, all the more repulsive when these programs are directed at children and adolescents

I appeal to the leaders of the media industry to educated and encourage producers to safeguard the common good, to uphold the truth, to protect individual human dignity and promote respect for the needs of the family.

Anyone want to guess how many video games Pope Benedict XVI played while growing up? Our guess: none. The Pope went on to suggest that children should be encouraged to enjoy classic literature, fine arts and "uplifting music".

We are sure, at some point in time, classic literature, fine arts and many forms of music were also condemned as hurtful, hateful and pervasive.

A few of us may find it odd that video games are being condemned for their "virtual" violence while so many religions (including Christianity) have fought to recapture "holy lands" from foreign rule (see: Crusades).

There are many things wrong with the world today which may not always come down to the root cause of "video games." Perhaps we should spent a little more time with the core of the problem?

source: http://www.mcvuk.com

Thanks to phalanx13 for writing us in about the news.


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Reader Comments

my 2 cents (Score: 1)
Posted By Outsider8178 on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:06:45 EST
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I think he is full of sh*t.


Read the Old Testament lately? (Score: 1)
Posted By doscon on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:22:05 EST
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There's plenty of sex and violence in the OT books. Incest, debauchery, homosexuality, war, death, destruction, excessive violence...not that the NT is void of this content. This issue is one of Parental Guidance, deciding how and what your children see and hear and helping your children understand the world around them. When the kids grow up, hopefully, they can make up their own minds. Yesterday it was Tipper Gore, today its the Pope. These people are simply looking for press and they get it. Do their opinions really affect us or matter? You decide.





slippery slope (Score: 1)
Posted By Codemunkee on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:27:44 EST
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Given how inflammatory this is going to get, I'm surprised its posted here.

All you have to do is look at the first comment to realize how this is going to play out


Agreed (Score: 1)
Posted By Big0ne on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:30:13 EST
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Agreed, probably best left in the forums.




It's news, it's real. (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:39:48 EST
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We don't have to flame each other too badly, putting your points aren't so bad. Plus, I believe one of us has the power to delete comments if we have to :)




Agreed (Score: 1)
Posted By Codemunkee on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:49:13 EST
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I dont dispute that its news, because it is, and its relevant. My concern is respect for other people. I've seen how bad the political forum gets.





Deja Vu? (Score: 1)
Posted By Angelito on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:28:07 EST
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Did the Church not say the same about books before.
Being Born and raised in Portugal, I can say that our church history is not something to be proud of.
Should he not be more concerned about the altar boys?
With so many problems in todays society the pope has time to worry about video games.
This pope and his mouth are sure proving to be a great team.
More and more people are losing faith in their religion and this guy is doing nothing to help, that is for sure.




Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By Bulltearspc on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:31:51 EST
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Yep, he is right. I think games will change but it is also hard for the older generation (hrrmmm) to understand that if the mind is intelligent enough it can partake in these types of things without acting them out. How can kids have the wisdom to react to this type of influence. Look at all the dirty little shits on live...there is your answer.


I think the Pope would have been better versed if he said "Kill the Timmy quick and dont let his talk about your mom"


"Kill the timmy"



You are no John Paul II (Score: 1)
Posted By Louie on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:46:31 EST
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Oh great! Pope Benedict once again needs to put his foot in his mouth and proves one more time he is no John Paul II. I am Cathlolic but do not accept the leadership of this pope.



Whatever (Score: 1)
Posted By DrPlague on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:47:15 EST
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With all the horrible isuses there are in the world and the church itself, this is what the pope picks to speak out on? Mayeb next he can attack the evils of rock n' roll.



a niche market (Score: 1)
Posted By n0kx on Thursday, January 25 @ 11:59:43 EST
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maybe if someone made a game called "touch me there" and used a priest and altar boy?

before video games and television kids played with toy guns, swords, etc... it's just how we are.

it's up to the parents to instill in those children that doing those things to someone for real is wrong.



read what was said..... (Score: 1)
Posted By vsquared4ever on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:00:44 EST
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"Which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivilization of human sexuality is a perversion, all the more repulsive when these programs are directed at children and adolescents"

If that is what the video game market is doing, then he has a point. It is not black and white, but its not like he is way off base. I dont let my little sister play any violent games, and try to limit what types of cartoons and movies she watches (which limits the games she can play drastically)......does that make me a zealot, Or "Full of $hit" like the first comment says?


It is called being a parent (Score: 1)
Posted By DrPlague on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:07:40 EST
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The video game makers and flim producers don't have mind control over children. They can only play the game and watch the movie if the parents let them. The pope should be attacking parents who don't do their job and not some products that were not made for children in the first place.




For example (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:55:29 EST
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Family Guy is a hilarious show, I love it. Yet I'm not going to let my kids watch that while they're growing up. I don't blame the producers, the writers, the network for anything my kids learn from the show. I'd have to blame myself.

CodeMonkey




Agreed (Score: 1)
Posted By Slipperyalpha on Thursday, January 25 @ 13:09:57 EST
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I think freedom of speech should be protected (which most if not all forms of entertainment fall under) and thankfully it is in the U.S., just as freedom of religion or lack of religion. If people want to follow a religious leader, then that is their choice. However, to make grand proclamations that every human should follow is just poor judgment because everyone has their own moral ruler of what is acceptable for them and their family. If they're a religious leader, why is this even being brought up outside of their church or denomination because this has little to do with a lot of people in society?




Because they're human (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Thursday, January 25 @ 13:29:07 EST
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Regardless to whom we speak, they're all human. Just as a few of us will get into a topic hard and heavy when we believe in it on a public forum they do the same.

Everyone has their beliefs and ideas, but a few of those are in a position of vocal power where they can share it with others. Just like the Wall Street Journal or New York Times could do, but they're more "unbiased" in a way in order to not offend any one culture and lose potential sales opportunities.

The Pope, and many government officials aren't being neutral to keep sales figures high and their in the position because of their beliefs and enough people that align with them.

The problem is, sometimes you should just calm down and not press your opinions on others with such power. Of course, that too, is just a belief :)

CodeMonkey




No. (Score: 1)
Posted By UnwashedMass on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:12:45 EST
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That makes you a parent, or puts you in a parent-type role. The number one opinion on this site is that parents should actively parent and the government does not need to legislate everything. If there were more conscientious(sp?) parents out there, raising kids with decent manners, there would be no reason for this site in the first place. There would be no need for refuge.

I believe the Pope would have scored major points if he'd done it differently, but Popes have historically never been moderate on many viewpoints. It got people talking, and many of those parents who won't play video gmes will hear the Pope's message when they won't watch the news or read a book. It's a political tactic.





Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By PoltegIce on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:28:00 EST
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We take any negative views on something we love as an attack on ourselves. The truth is a lot of video games are kinda sick. I play Gears of War all the time and its an ugly violent mess when it gets down to it. No problem there if you are an adult but when you buy this for your ten year old and stick the kid infront of the TV so they don't bother you is a problem. The truth is until parents learn that video games are not just kids toys, these problems are gonna continue.

I hate thinking that because of the negligence of parents my gaming might suffer. But I've been wondering don't i have some responsibility as a productive member of society to do something. What that might be I'm not sure... I'm a gamer and love video games. Should I boycott my favorite violent games like halo and Gears? I really don'y want to. But I tell myself what should I do. We are contributers to this problem. Its not nice to hear but the guys making these video games are making them for us. We want these kinds of video games. So as members of society don't we have a responsibiltiy to make sure the young, innocent and easily pursuaded members of our society aren't corrupted by our own selfish need for distraction?

We are members of a mature gaming community folks. People who have been playing video games for a mojority of our lives! Video games have changed a whole lot since pong. We do need to do something. I think we can do something. The problem is keeping our games out of the hands of minors! How do we do that? Well the problem seems a lot like the issue of porn? I know its kinda extreme to compare the two but we want to keep porn out of the hands of minors and the same with grand theft Auto. Maybe seperating video games? Having a display case with big red letters that says "Warning ADULT! these games contain extreme violence coarse language, sexual perversion and whatever" That would make more parents stop before they pick up grand theft auto for their kinds. Lets face it no one is paying attention to the ESRB (i think thats it) ratings.

So how do we do it. Well I got one idea that i know I will take a lot of flak for. Caution don't read on if you have a weak heart. Boycott Halo3 till serious action is taken by retailers and game producers to separate Mature Games from kids games! Make a petition here on 2o2p get us to sign it, contact some major newspapers. Get the attention of the powers that be to do something, anything at all.We are a big community and together we are strong, all we gotta do is show some back bone. Lets act like a mature gaming community and do something.

Sorry for the length of this post.


Great Post (Score: 1)
Posted By CapnHun on Thursday, January 25 @ 16:58:29 EST
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No apology needed, it is obviously lengthy because it was a well thought out reply. I applaud your desire to sacrifice something you love for the sake of others. As parents, we have made some choices for the sake of protecting our children, like getting a Wii for the kids to game on, having all our electronics in one room where there is (most of the time) adult supervision, putting blocks on the TV for anything rated above PG14, and my husband using the toned down graphics on his GoW. If the kids were younger I would insist he play only when they are in bed, but usually they are wrapped up in their own thing to be paying attention to his game anyway. I have also noticed that any time the kids play any action, knock 'em around type games they are more prone to physical aggression and so I have to set time limits on most of their games as well.

I have read some articles that describe how young peoples brains respond from a completely different lobe than adults do while playing video games (I believe it was a lobe responsible for more emotional, instinctive decisions; it also enables them to respond quicker to stimuli, thereby making it easier for them to master the games). Interestingly, this changes about the time young people turn 25, when they are then able to join 2old2play. ;)

I have also mentioned our responsibility to society in general, not just to our own children. This isn't much of an altruistic motive on my part; my kids have to go to the same schools as children who are uncared for as well as those who are spoiled, emotionally troubled and whatever other problems they have. In a way, this is good...it helps give them the practice they need in dealing with the real world, but sometimes it is an aweful lot to ask of them. I work in an office environment where there are higher standerds of behavior than is expected at my daughters High School. I don't have to put up with some guys leering out the window of their car at me while a rap song expressing the pleasures of violently assulting a woman sexually blares in the background. I don't have to worry about being asked to smoke a doobie, or encouraged to go see this fight my friend just got paged about. I can bring a back pack or wear a trench coat to work if I want. If I piss someone off I don't need to worry that that person is going to pull out a pistol on me tomorrow. My kids don't have these luxuries.

So I don't get upset with the Political and Spiritual heads of our society who are trying to come to terms with our technological changes. Yes, there are going to be many ignorent statements. And some people are going to see the technology itself as evil and come up with some stupid ideas of how to curb it. However, we (as a socity) still must make some responsible decisions about how we use our technology. Just like the ones made to give us freedom of the Press but not the freedom to libel someone. Like the decisions to grant freedom of Speech but we not free to go beyond the standards of our community (yes there is are federal laws, upheld by the Supreme Court on pornography to this effect, you just don't hear about them being enforced because our standards nowadays are so low) and like allowing freedom of Religion but not allowing people to perform a human sacrifice to their god(s).

I think onward has it right idea that the adult (and hopefully mature) gaming community are the ideal people to do it. I can't agree on the method because I don't think it will be effective but you could get the local gamers in YOUR community to make a petition for parents to sign saying we will not be buying video games from your store until the mature games are seperated from the other games. And perhaps a gaming review magazine is offered on their stands that is geared towards evaluating games for 'graphic' content as well as quality of play that has some other backing then the video game industry itself (OK this last thing is on my personal wish list...but it sure would be nice).

Setting standards is not a b

Read the rest of this comment...




Great Post (Score: 1)
Posted By CapnHun on Thursday, January 25 @ 16:58:32 EST
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No apology needed, it is obviously lengthy because it was a well thought out reply. I applaud your desire to sacrifice something you love for the sake of others. As parents, we have made some choices for the sake of protecting our children, like getting a Wii for the kids to game on, having all our electronics in one room where there is (most of the time) adult supervision, putting blocks on the TV for anything rated above PG14, and my husband using the toned down graphics on his GoW. If the kids were younger I would insist he play only when they are in bed, but usually they are wrapped up in their own thing to be paying attention to his game anyway. I have also noticed that any time the kids play any action, knock 'em around type games they are more prone to physical aggression and so I have to set time limits on most of their games as well.

I have read some articles that describe how young peoples brains respond from a completely different lobe than adults do while playing video games (I believe it was a lobe responsible for more emotional, instinctive decisions; it also enables them to respond quicker to stimuli, thereby making it easier for them to master the games). Interestingly, this changes about the time young people turn 25, when they are then able to join 2old2play. ;)

I have also mentioned our responsibility to society in general, not just to our own children. This isn't much of an altruistic motive on my part; my kids have to go to the same schools as children who are uncared for as well as those who are spoiled, emotionally troubled and whatever other problems they have. In a way, this is good...it helps give them the practice they need in dealing with the real world, but sometimes it is an aweful lot to ask of them. I work in an office environment where there are higher standerds of behavior than is expected at my daughters High School. I don't have to put up with some guys leering out the window of their car at me while a rap song expressing the pleasures of violently assulting a woman sexually blares in the background. I don't have to worry about being asked to smoke a doobie, or encouraged to go see this fight my friend just got paged about. I can bring a back pack or wear a trench coat to work if I want. If I piss someone off I don't need to worry that that person is going to pull out a pistol on me tomorrow. My kids don't have these luxuries.

So I don't get upset with the Political and Spiritual heads of our society who are trying to come to terms with our technological changes. Yes, there are going to be many ignorent statements. And some people are going to see the technology itself as evil and come up with some stupid ideas of how to curb it. However, we (as a socity) still must make some responsible decisions about how we use our technology. Just like the ones made to give us freedom of the Press but not the freedom to libel someone. Like the decisions to grant freedom of Speech but we not free to go beyond the standards of our community (yes there is are federal laws, upheld by the Supreme Court on pornography to this effect, you just don't hear about them being enforced because our standards nowadays are so low) and like allowing freedom of Religion but not allowing people to perform a human sacrifice to their god(s).

I think onward has it right idea that the adult (and hopefully mature) gaming community are the ideal people to do it. I can't agree on the method because I don't think it will be effective but you could get the local gamers in YOUR community to make a petition for parents to sign saying we will not be buying video games from your store until the mature games are seperated from the other games. And perhaps a gaming review magazine is offered on their stands that is geared towards evaluating games for 'graphic' content as well as quality of play that has some other backing then the video game industry itself (OK this last thing is on my personal wish list...but it sure would be nice).

Setting standards is not a b

Read the rest of this comment...





50/50 (Score: 1)
Posted By the5thchild on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:30:17 EST
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While I agree that there is no point in children and adolescents playing some games on the market (violent, sex oriented games), I do believe that there are a lot of games out there that do exactly what the Pope is saying.

Jade Empire contained all three suggestions.

Classic Literature = The Art of War by Sun Tzu, and many references to classic mythology.

Fine Art = Digital Art is the new canvas.

Uplifting Music = Have you heard game soundtracks nowadays?

Of course this is just one example out of many (and the first that popped into my mind).

Most people are afraid of change. I just wish that everybody (Government and the Pope) would take a look at the industry with fresh eyes and realize that it really isn't the "society killer" that they thought it was.

With technology that rivals most movies, games can now "paint pictures" like never before. Good or bad.


It's all lumped into one (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Thursday, January 25 @ 13:02:00 EST
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For those that don't play video games and are, in short, ignorant to the entire hobby... they just don't "understand" that not all games are like this.

You hear Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Bully and others in the news but you never hear about those games that have educational value or promote more than simply violence as the themes underscore.

That is the sign of ignorance and it is exhibited by so many heads of religion and government. Basically, those people that have a voice use it without thinking a lot.

It's not like a hardcore gamer won't say "oh yeah, this game is pretty violent" because they know it is. It isn't that religion is wrong on all accounts - it's more about how they present their argument with vague description and generalization that makes it incorrect.

People that write articles against or for a subject often do research into it and point out the big focus areas and explain it all better. Even someone against video games that isn't a politician (probably more like a blogger) would take the time to express the difference between violent games and "games" in general.

CodeMonkey





The devil made me do it. (Score: 1)
Posted By Lord_Galvatron on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:47:15 EST
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:-)



Pope Palpatine (Score: 1)
Posted By Gatsu on Thursday, January 25 @ 12:50:06 EST
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Come on....he does kinda look like Palpatine.



:rolleyes: (Score: 1)
Posted By T3muJin on Thursday, January 25 @ 13:31:07 EST
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The Pope is a Fucktard...


Preach On Brother Man :) (Score: 1)
Posted By codemonkey on Thursday, January 25 @ 14:35:03 EST
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You're comments are like little carpet bombs :)





Be a Parent (Score: 1)
Posted By PirateJack on Thursday, January 25 @ 14:42:00 EST
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Nothing is a substitution for real life parenting. Everything is just one step away from your child and the best thing you can do is are your kids with the knowledge of it and how to deal with it.

I've got two girls (8 & 10) and whenever they want to watch me play a videogame (such as Gears of War) I simply state that things in the game are not real (such as we are not at war with giant aliens) and no one is actually getting hurt when you shoot them in a game. I know it sounds simple and it is, but taking the time reiterate things like, "you don't see me running down the street in real life shooting people with a shotgun do you?" helps drive home the point that what they are seeing in a video game does is not different than Harry Potter driving a sword through a giant snake.

If the game has too much gore or language, I simply tell them I don't think it's appropriate for them or that it may be too scary and they are fine with that. Likewise, I tell them if they hear inappropriate language in a film or game, that does not give them cart blanche to start saying those things either and I've never had a single incident of them using a curse word.

Just do your job and be a parent because boycotting games, pushing for labeling laws, etc. will not stop your kid from getting on the Internet and seeing something worse. If they know bad stuff is out there and you've instilled good decision making into them, they will close the browser if something comes up they shouldn't see.



Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By DeltaT on Thursday, January 25 @ 15:31:58 EST
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Kids are punks nowadays, there is no doubt, When society is trying to dictate how we raise our kids there is problem (cali to outlaw spankings anyone) When I was away from home and I screwed up the closest adult kicked my ass. When I mouthed off to older kids or my friends parents they kicked my ass..Now everyone turns a blind eye for fear of arrest and ridicule....My friends son was mouthing off (swearing) to teachers and to him, he shoved a bar of soap in his mouth...Next day Child services was there and told him he is a child abuser and next time he will arrested.....While the kid sat there with the smugest look on his face. BULL!!!Are video Games,Violent movies and cartoons to blame...Hell no....Kids need to know whats out of line and when everyones scared to show them where that line is we get a generation of punks.....



*sigh* (Score: 1)
Posted By SirPoonga on Thursday, January 25 @ 15:34:58 EST
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If everyone is offended by this that must mean they believe children should be playing violent and sexual video games? Read the first quote. It's about keeping violent and sexual video games away from children. Or is it selective reading causing the comments?

Did you guys actually read the quotes? Did you guys read the whole speech without the media twist? These quotes are taken out of context.

If you read the whole speech without the media twist the pope was saying it is parent's responsibility to keep their children away from mature games. And based on comments already made here that seems to be a popular opinion on this site. So why are you being negative about this? Is it because it is the pope who made the comments and you have a grudge against anyone who is religious?

"Perhaps we should spent a little more time with the core of the problem?"
Which is parenting and teaching kids what's right and wrong, right? That's what the pope was talking about. But the media conveniently left that part out.

I think this is the media setting up the popular opinion on video games for when elections occur. I have a feeling video games are going to be an issue like music and movie was years ago.

The media knows if you add in religion to a topic you will get a huge response. Pope talking about video games, perfect. Let's take out the parts that will cause a stir of comments therefore getting more readers and viewers.

This site even did that!
"A few of us may find it odd that video games are being condemned for their "virtual" violence while so many religions (including Christianity) have fought to recapture "holy lands" from foreign rule (see: Crusades)."
The only purpose for that comment is to cause a stir of comments. What is being condemned is letting children play violent video games, not video games in general.

People are falling into the media trap of making violent video games an issue.


Ok but (Score: 1)
Posted By T3muJin on Thursday, January 25 @ 18:25:57 EST
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the pope is still a fucktard...




Incoming! (Score: 1)
Posted By UnwashedMass on Thursday, January 25 @ 20:35:40 EST
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:)




KaBoom (Score: 1)
Posted By Lusetti67 on Sunday, January 28 @ 13:40:56 EST
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I knew that was comming





Focus people... (Score: 1)
Posted By BalekFekete on Thursday, January 25 @ 15:44:38 EST
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This is about violent games and children. Period.

I am firmly in the camp with my wife in that we try our best to protect our kids from the barrage of trash that comes at them from all angles...television, radio, the internet, you name it. For the television and the video game, I employ that wonderful little gimmick called the v-chip and parental controls. For the internet, I got the computers locked down tight.

It's the parents job - even responsibility IMHO - to use whatever means to protect their kids to the best of their ability. Let's not lose sight of the ball here folks. Religion, or who this came from, really doesn't matter - the message is the same.

B.



Here we go! (Score: 1)
Posted By br1ckt0p on Friday, January 26 @ 09:32:54 EST
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I tend to NOT give religious leaders at any level much credit...the crazy Muslim clerics in Iran, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, the Pope, etc.

They all share a similar trait...they claim to serve their god, but they serve their self interests. They all make valid points at times, but overall I try to ignore them all.

Eggs Benedict has some valid points here. The promotion of violence in society through games is a concern for 2 key groups in my opinion:
Kids and the insane (or at least those with violent tendencies and act those out in real life).

But throughout history, religion has been the #1 promoter of violence, bar none, end of debate. If he hopes to see that change, good for him.

Still, for me, violent video games are something of an artistic outlet, a catharsis. A night of Gears like I had last night--working-up a sweat in close games, lead some in kills, come in last in others, but laughing like crazy the whole time--really takes puts a long stressful day in the rear view mirror.

Painting violent games with such a broad brush is not an intelligent argument.

I do agree, though, that kids (under 15 for me) shouldn't play violent games. Studies have shown that playing a game like Gears or Halo stimulates the same area of the brain that is overactive in serial killers and psychopaths. In normal, healthy adults, that's not a problem because we have fully developed impulse control. We have matured. Kids, though, are still developing that area of the brain up to and beyond 18 years-of-age. I don't criticize parents who DO let their younger kids do it, but for me, I choose not to.



Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By saucerfreak2012 on Friday, January 26 @ 14:01:16 EST
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"Any trend to produce programs and products - including animated movies and video games - which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivilization of human sexuality is a perversion, all the more repulsive when these programs are directed at children and adolescents"

Which is why games have ratings.

Otherwise I agree. There're plenty of games I won't let my son watch me play. As for myself, I know the difference between a Locust grunt and my neighbor, so I don't shoot my neighbor or attack him with my chainsaw.


Untitled (Score: 1)
Posted By SirPoonga on Friday, January 26 @ 15:34:42 EST
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The big question are the ratings being enforced.




They are (Score: 1)
Posted By DrPlague on Saturday, January 27 @ 13:39:21 EST
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if the parents are using the ratings. Parents should be checking the ratings on games their children are playing.





Responsible Parents Needed (Score: 1)
Posted By T-ROY on Tuesday, February 13 @ 17:19:54 EST
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So hard to find.



Video games (Score: 1)
Posted By roger2008 on Thursday, December 11 @ 03:51:56 EST
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Entertainment systems in which a computer is used to drive a video display and interact with players using a variety of input devices. Video games can be divided into arcade systems, home computers, and game consoles. The distinction between a home computer and a game console is that a computer can be used for a variety of other applications such as word processing and Internet access while a game console is specifically designed for entertainment purposes.
====================================================
Roger
wow gold



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Digital Violence: A smaller, tight knit clan focused on team gaming, no cheating, and plenty of ruthless killing. Basically, we are pursuing quality over quantity.
2old4Forzatoo: 2old4Forzatoo is a clan dedicated to all aspects of forza motorsport 2

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